The Glade 4.0

Monty:

Define "incite" for the purposes of your point.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

While this is true, incite has a very specific meaning within the law. Inciting something means directly stating that the listener should engage in some violent action.

For example "you should go shoot Jesse Jackson" is inciting violence. "I hope Jesse Jackson does today" is not. The listener is responsible if they extrapolate the latter to mean that the speaker wants them to shoot Mr. Jackson.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yes, but don't forget the "wink wink nudge nudge", DE. For example, the recent spate of crap you can buy with that Psalm 108:9, maybe? The psalm itself *seems* to simply hope for a short term in office for the president. If you read on, it very clearly is a prayer for his death, and for the vast suffering of his wife and children after the fact.

It's a dog whistle.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

What "wink wink nudge nudge?" All that's doing is claiming "whatever I read into what you're saying is what you're saying."

As for Psalm 108, disregarding the extreme dubiousness of thinking a psalm is about a U.S. president, even if you pray for his death in that way that's not a prayer for someone to kill him. The "vast suffering" of his wife and children would pretty much happen as a result of the loss of their husband and father.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Are you familiar with this movement, DE? The purpose is very much directed at Obama. Here, just in case you aren't aware -

(and by the way, I got my numbers mixed up, it's 109:8).

The movement is specifically "Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8". You can go to Cafepress and get buttons, teddy bears, shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, and probably underwear with it printed there.

It's definiitely directed at the President. Here's how it reads - “Let his days be few; and let another take his office,”

Some might say it's merely a call to have him serve a single term. However, if you read on, the passage says -

“Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow,”

Cafepress initially pulled the merchanidse. Then they allowed it, calling it fair political commentary. Then, when people pointed out just how violent and vengeful that particular biblical passage was, and after polling their customer base, they pulled the products again.

That movement was a direct prayer, a call, for the murder of the President. It may as well be a biblical endorsement of assassination.



Edit - the hilarious things is that if you take the entire Psalm in context, it paints exactly the opposite picture than was intended by those that started this thing. Obama suddenly becomes the man facing hypocrits, haters, and liars, and is the one doing the cursing. Unfortunately, when you start it at verse 8, it becomes clear what he intention is.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Just asking, but were you ok with that when it was traveling in liberal circles about Bush?

Seemingly by coincidence, I heard about this just this morning. I want to go on record as opposing the use of Scripture in this way, no matter who is President. I truly want the policies of Obama to fail, crash, and burn. The policies. I wish no harm to his person or his family, I'd be pleased if he and they lived a rich, rewarding, full life. Preferably in the private sector.

As a minor point, why? I mean, I expect the economics of Obama to fail, crash, and burn. But it would be a nice surprise if they were an incredible success and the people of America ended up more prosperous and healthy than ever. Now, while I believe the latter is a pipe dream, I certainly don't want his policies to fail. I just do not believe they are tenable.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

No, because I consider many of the things he wants to do to be so far to the left that they have elements of socialism to them, and that impedes freedom.

Uh.. obviously its directed at Obama. That doesn't mean its an attempt to incite people to violence against him.



That's nice.



Yes it does. However, it's rather dishonest because that's verse 9 where it says that and the verse quoted is only verse 8. You can claim that they really are just avoiding saying that and want people to take verse 9 to heart, but that's just you superimposing something that hasn't been said on what's actually been called for.

In any case, there's nothing in that psalm that calls for anyone to kill anyone else.



Except that the passage cited isn't violent or vengeful, nor is the passage following it that some people have dishonestly tried to claim is also part of the campaign. All this proves is that you can engage in bullshit strawman propaganda and get a manufacturer to act on it.



No it's not. The passage calls for no such thing. You're just making this up.



Except that you're not even pulling that intention from verse 8, you're puling it from verse 9, and in any case, the hypocrisy and lies Obama is supposedly facing are figments of your imagination.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Psalm 109:8 and 9 are requests that are asked of God, not a call for men to action.

Blah blah blah protesters held up signs that said "Kill Bush". http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... 8%26um%3D1 yawn rinse repeat.

Show me their equal vs Obama and the best you can do is show that The Annointed One is at least getting equal treatment.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

DE, just because the first line is out of context doesn't mean that the purveyors of this most recent attempt to pray for Obama's death did not intend to say exactly what I am arguing.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Seems like a good spot to ask again: Were you as outraged by this when it was a joke floating in liberal circles about Bush?

When exactly was it a joke floating in liberal circles? Which circles?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Just because it's out of context also doesn't mean that they didn't intend to say that pink unicorns will take over Zimbabwe.

All you're doing is assigning a hidden meaning to what they said, and then challanging others to disprove it. It's made worse by the fact that when one quotes a bible verse by number, it's understood one is quoting only that verse or verses, not any others. Yes, that's taking it out of context, but the proper context is the whole bible; quoting is always taking something out of context to one degree or another. All you're doing is picking the verses in immediate proximity, claiming they say something they don't, and then saying you've "read between the lines."

Context means more than just the verses right there. It means what book it's in, what the purpose of that book is, and a lot of other things. Can you find any bible commentary that explains that the psalmist is calling for people to murder the unjust oppressor? No? That's right, you can't, because it doesn't mean that. It's a call for God to deal with the unjust person.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

I don't travel in liberal circles. I got the info from the same source I got the info that the joke was being spread about Obama; a source that called both wrong. Do you deny the joke was told during the Bush years?

Freedom isn't so cut and dry, though. A person who makes $10,000 a year and pays no taxes is less free economically than a person who makes $100,000 and has to pay $40,000 back to the government, simply by nature of having less to spend. My point was, if some miracle of illogic happened and obama's policies spurred an economic golden age, and his health care system becomes this wonderous example for the whole world, the people of America and its trading partners would be far better off economically, and therefore more free, than they were before.

All irrelevant, i suppose, because it's not going to happen. I just think hoping for failure is a bit wrong. People get too hung up on labels of socialism or capitalism, freedom and the like. The end result is what matters. The prosperity, security, leisure and civic freedom of the society involved really says how well thought out a set of policies and ideals were.

I'm somewhat libertarian in my economic outlook not because I think libertarianism is some great noble ideal, nor because i find its policies intellectually or morally appealling. I don't. I'm somewhat libertarian in my outlook because I believe this provides the greatest prosperity for the greatest number, and even those who fall through the cracks end up better off than they would in an egalitarian socialist society. Too many people are ass-backwards and look at ideology first, when the end result is all that matters.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

The difference is, the person who is making 10k isn't working (hi, that's less than minimum wage. I suppose, at best, they're working one minimum wage part-time job), and thus has a lot more free time than the person working very hard for 100k. The proportions are still very out of whack.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Having more money doesn't make you more free. Unless you consider luxury items an entitlement and a right.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

They only see the end result which is your paycheck and the current accumulation of your lifes wealth. They assume it comes in one lump when you graduate college or its given to you by rich family members or something.

They don't realize all the years of work and sacrifice in order to get to that point.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Freedom is simply a combination of having both legal right and ability to do things. A quadrapelegic has less freedom than someone who isn't disabled. They may be allowed to play basketball, but they still don't have freedom to do so.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I was referring more to the idea that the same person, doing the same job, might make different amounts under different economic systems. The $10,000 was meant to illustrate the equivalent job under communism or complete laissez-faire capitalism compared to the $100,000 taxed at 40% like he might make under a hybrid system of capitalism with socialist checks and balances like we have always had in the west.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

A quadrapalegic cannot become mobile through any means of his own or at all (wildly experimental medical procedures exepted). A guy who is 6' has very little chance in the NBA (the average guard is like 6'2"-6'6" , yet look at Spudd Web, Nate Robinson and Allen Iverson.

Everyone has the "ability" to do anything. A quadrapalegic may not be able to walk or use his arms, but it doesn't mean he is incapable of accomplishing things that we typically use our arms or legs for.

You might as well complain that humans can't fly, breath underwater or teleport from that perspective. The problem with the ultra-utilitarian mindset is it never solves problems that are "impossible".

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Humans don't have freedom to teleport. We do have freedom to fly or breathe underwater, given our technological advancement.

And nothing solves problems that are "impossible." If they get solved, they were never impossible.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █