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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:00 am 
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I just thought this was interesting. This is from a bill drafted by senators Carl Levin and John McCain, which will be voted on today.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.1867:

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SEC. 401. END STRENGTHS FOR ACTIVE FORCES.

The Armed Forces are authorized strengths for active duty personnel as of September 30, 2012, as follows:
(1) The Army, 562,000.
(2) The Navy, 325,700.
(3) The Marine Corps, 202,100.
(4) The Air Force, 332,800.

...

SEC. 421. MILITARY PERSONNEL.

(a) Authorization of Appropriations- There is hereby authorized to be appropriated for military personnel for fiscal year 2012 a total of $142,347,648,000.
(b) Construction of Authorization- The authorization of appropriations in subsection (a) supersedes any other authorization of appropriations (definite or indefinite) for such purpose for fiscal year 2012.



edit: For detentions see below posts


Last edited by Lex Luthor on Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:33 am 
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This is the same bill that allows the military to detain people in the US right?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:40 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
This is the same bill that allows the military to detain people in the US right?


Supposedly, but in the bill it says it excludes American citizens and lawful non-citizens.

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(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-
(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.
(2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.


edit:

On second thought it would be pretty problematic if they started detaining migrant Mexican workers, for example.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:56 am 
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The only thing that allowing them to detain people in the U.S. actually does is allow the national guard along the border to detain illegal aliens. It does not in any way repeal Posse Comitatus. Right now the National Guard just sits there and calls the Border Patrol on the radio if they see something. (They work in the same areas and the agents are just minutes away so it does work, but allowing the soldiers to actually get involved in detaining aliens would greatly increase effectiveness and safety for everyone.)

The end strengths in total numbers of personnel aren't terribly informative, either. THose are active duty numbers, not reserves, but in either case it says nothing about what the breakdown of those personnel is. For the Navy, how many ships and of what type is far more important than numbers of personnel; for the Air Force its aircraft. For the Army, Brigade Combat Teams and total Brigades of all types are more important than raw numbers of bodies.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:11 pm 
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I am very sceptical of the source for the detaining US Citizens since the only place I have seen it published is infowars.com and Alex Jones is a raving lunatic.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:11 pm 
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The protections of the US Constitution apply to all citizens and those under her jurisdiction (including illegal aliens and terrorists).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
The protections of the US Constitution apply to all citizens and those under her jurisdiction (including illegal aliens and terrorists).


And military tribunals are outside of the constitution?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Duh.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:50 pm 
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You'll ever guess who they're saying the language that exempted US Citizens from the Bill was removed at the behest of...
Check out the video at about 4:29:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/SenateSession4951


http://volokh.com/2011/11/30/defense-bi ... -citizens/

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Defense bill will allow President to indefinitely detain American citizens
David Kopel • November 30, 2011 4:11 pm

H.R. 1540, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, has already passed the House, and is currently before the Senate. One section of the bill gives the President the authority to detain indefinitely American citizens, picked up on American soil, because they are allegedly supporting the enemy:

SEC. 1034. AFFIRMATION OF ARMED CONFLICT WITH AL QAEDA, THE TALIBAN, AND ASSOCIATED FORCES.
Congress affirms that—
(1) the United States is engaged in an armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces and that those entities continue to pose a threat to the United States and its citizens, both domestically and abroad;
(2) the President has the authority to use all necessary and appropriate force during the current armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40; 50 U.S.C. 23 1541 note);
(3) the current armed conflict includes nations, organization, and persons who—
(A) are part of, or are substantially supporting, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or
(B) have engaged in hostilities or have directly supported hostilities in aid of a nation, organization, or person described in subparagraph (A); and
(4) the President’s authority pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 11 107–40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note) includes the authority to detain belligerents, including persons described in paragraph (3), until the termination of hostilities.

Yesterday the Senate rejected an amendment by Senator Mark Udall (D-Colo.) that would have stricken the detention provisions, and required the Executive branch to submit a report (within 90 days) on the the legal and practical issues involving detention, and required Congress to hold hearings on the detention within the next 45 days after receipt of the report.

The bill also includes provisions to prevent civilian trials of prisoners currently held at Guantanamo. The Obama administration is threatening to veto the bill, although the objections appear to involve Guantanamo-type issues, and not the expansion of the executive’s detention powers. [Note: The bill version quoted above is the version as passed by the House and sent to the Senate. It is the latest version available on Thomas. The numbering for some sections may be different in earlier versions of the bill.] Kudos to Senator Udall, one of the few genuine civil libertarians in Congress, for taking the lead on this issue.

UPDATE: A commenter points out that, according to Senator Carl Levin, it was the Obama administration which told Congress to remove the language in the original bill which exempted American citizens and lawful residents from the detention power. See the C-Span video of the debate on the floor of the Senate, at 4:43:29. This is not the Obama I caucused for in Feb. 2008.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:54 pm 
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But now he is threatening to veto it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:35 pm 
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This is nothing to worry about. If you are a law-abiding citizen, you can't possibly be twined, and if you're not you deserve it. Frankly, I see no reason why the president shouldn't have been given this power a hundred years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:04 pm 
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The DOD training manual states that protesting the government is a form of low-level terrorism.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
The DOD training manual states that protesting the government is a form of low-level terrorism.


There are different levels of protests... there are some individuals who plant and detonate bombs out of protest. 99.9999% of protesters aren't terrorists though.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:16 pm 
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There is no such thing as the "DOD training manual".

As for the rest, it still does not allow the military to detain citizens domestically and if their detained when taken in arms in foreign countries.. how the **** else are people like John Walker Lindh supposed to be captured?

We were hearing 6 years ago about how the PResident could supposedly just declare anyone he didn't like an "illegal combatant" and.. it never happened. Cynicism about the government is becoming its own caricature.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:34 pm 
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We can't know if it ever happened DE. They would be vanished. That is rather the scary part.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
We can't know if it ever happened DE. They would be vanished. That is rather the scary part.


The government could also vanish people without any legality behind it. However, there's plenty of proven things to be more worried about.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
We can't know if it ever happened DE. They would be vanished. That is rather the scary part.


In other words, you have no evidence whatsoever. Classic conspiracy theory bullshit.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:12 pm 
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You're hopeless.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Hopelessly unconvinced of the cartoon world you live in? Yes. If you weren't a total idiot, you'd realize that if the President were going to sieze citizens and then "disappear" them... they wouldn't bother with an overt Congressional bill giving him authority to do so. You're amazing. In your world, the government is run by people who are simultaneously power-mad wannabe dictators running conspiracies so clever we can't even identify these supposedly-disappeared people, and yet at the same time they're so ragingly incompetent that they just publish it in a legislative action.

Of course, you're also the sort of person that thinks "you're hopeless" is an argument so... continue being a total moron, by all means. There's occasional entertainment to be had from your raving lunacy.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:31 am 
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No DE hopeless when it comes to understand what you're saying. I have no hope that you understand what you say or ever will.

The law states it is illegal to tell your lawyer or your spouse if you had been detained in the matter and the state doesn't issue any information on the subject.

We know there would be no reporting no matter how often it happened.

You're stating that the no reporting is evidence of the non-existence of the practice when if undertaken there would be no reporting of it. Let me make this clear - you stated a categorical when you said "It did not happen" when there is no way you can know if it did or not by design.

You believe it didn't happen (because that is what you want to believe) and somehow you cite your own belief as proof that your belief on other topics is also correct.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:33 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
There is no such thing as the "DOD training manual".

As for the rest, it still does not allow the military to detain citizens domestically and if their detained when taken in arms in foreign countries.. how the **** else are people like John Walker Lindh supposed to be captured?

We were hearing 6 years ago about how the PResident could supposedly just declare anyone he didn't like an "illegal combatant" and.. it never happened. Cynicism about the government is becoming its own caricature.



Oh and DE:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:17 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
We can't know if it ever happened DE. They would be vanished. That is rather the scary part.

http://www.nocvenezuela.org/detail/697/ ... llery.html

If a harsh dictatorship couldn't hide it, why the hell would you think the USG could?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:37 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
We can't know if it ever happened DE. They would be vanished. That is rather the scary part.

http://www.nocvenezuela.org/detail/697/ ... llery.html

If a harsh dictatorship couldn't hide it, why the hell would you think the USG could?


Likely because they were more comfortable and thus used it more frequently which means a greater chance of any once incident coming to light and of people noticing a general trend of vanishing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:52 am 
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The government is full of bumbling fools and culturally we love to leak secrets like that... There's no way the government could hide disappearing people in this day and age.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:45 am 
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http://www.amazon.com/They-Thought-Were ... 0226511928

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