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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:10 am 
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http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... lizing-pot

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Editor's Note: Got any good story ideas for GlobalPost? We'll have our correspondents cover the best ones. Check out RedditSuggest for details.

MALMO, Sweden — Copenhagen just got a lot closer to legalizing the sale of pot.

If approved by the Danish parliament, next year the city could grant licenses to individual marijuana growers. City-owned shops would then sell their crop to the public.

That prospect was deeply amusing to Israel, a burly dreadlocked Cuban in Christiania, the city’s self-declared “free town.”

"I will grow it!" he said with excessive zeal. "I’ve got this big bag of seeds."

Israel was sitting outside a cafe near Pusher Street, the area’s open-air cannabis market, rolling a succession of monster joints for the locals and tourists who drop by for a smoke.

Legalization debate: First pot, now coke?

Copenhagen’s city municipality voted in recent weeks, 39 votes to 9, to empower its social affairs committee to draw up a detailed plan to legalize cannabis.

If that plan is approved by Denmark’s new left-of-centre parliament next year, the city could become the first to legalize marijuana, rather than simply tolerate it, as police do in the Netherlands.
“We are thinking of perhaps 30 to 40 public sales houses, where the people aren’t interested in selling you more, they’re interested in you,” Mikkel Warming, the mayor in charge of social affairs at Copenhagen City Council told GlobalPost. “Who is it better for youngsters to buy marijuana from? A drug pusher, who wants them to use more, who wants them to buy hard drugs, or a civil servant?”

Judging by the good-natured way Israel joshed with one of the day’s customers — a teenager whom he appeared to have reduced to an incoherent, pale-faced stupor — he’s not exactly threatening.

But the same cannot be said for the gangsters on Pusher Street, whose crew cuts and bulky jackets make them look more like nightclub bouncers. They are a far cry from the hippie idealists who founded Christiania in a disused army barracks 40 years ago.

It is these people, the biker and immigrant gangs who manage the city’s drug supplies, that Warming wants to cut out.

"People who use marijuana are paying money to criminals, mostly to gang members, and it’s a market that every year, is worth up to two billion Danish kroner ($350 million). That’s enough to fight for, which is why we’ve had a war between the gangs in Copenhagen," he said.

More: Dutch ban foreigners from cannabis cafes

That’s why he doesn’t want to institute a system where smoking marijuana is tolerated in cannabis cafes, but officially illegal, and therefore profitable for criminals to grow and import.

Copenhagen effectively operated such a system in Christiania until 2004, when the police moved in and shut the district’s thriving cannabis cafes, forcing the trade into street stalls.

And it still exists in the Netherlands today, although Dutch authorities are tightening up.

“We don’t want an Amsterdam model," Warming said. "We want a way to make it legal to import or grow marijuana."

The details still must be ironed out. But Warming imagines a system similar to the state-owned alcohol monopoly that operates in neighboring Sweden.

The government would either grow marijuana itself or license growers, as already happens in countries that allow the drug to be used for medical purposes.

More: Pot-shaped candy outrages activists, lawmakers

The Danish parliament voted down a similar proposal submitted by Copenhagen City Council three years ago, but since then a new left-of-centre government has come in, giving it a better chance of getting through.

In a sign of the changing times, some in the ruling Social Democratic party are beginning to support the idea.

Lars Aslan Rasmussen, the party’s official spokesman on cannabis, believes it is only a matter of time.

"If you look at Copenhagen city, at first it was only the Socialists, then it became the Red-Green Alliance, then it became the Social Democrats, and now we’ve got some of the Liberals," he said. "I think we are slowly getting there. Around the world, people are changing their opinions on this. The war on drugs, it didn’t really work."

Many in his party disagree, not least Ole Haekkerup, the legal spokesman.

"If we make it easier to get marijuana, we expect that more people would end up on hard drugs," he told Ekstra Bladet, a Danish newspaper, after the vote.

The Danish Socialist People’s Party quietly dropped their support for legalization when they joined the Social Democrats’ coalition in June in the run up to September’s election.

More: Pot brownies at funeral send 3 to hospital

But support is nonetheless building. Lars Kragh Andersen, who was sacked as an assistant policeman earlier this year after refusing to arrest cannabis users, has become a prominent campaigner.

The law student this week sent a statement to the Copenhagen police announcing that he had begun dealing small amounts of a cannabis from his home. To prove his point, he included a marijuana joint in the letter.

Israel, seemingly oblivious to the possible loss of earnings, agrees that Warming's plan is the only sensible way to go.

"The government created the gangs," he said. "They have to open up, because every drug in this town is legal, even if it’s not legal. You can find hash and cocaine on every street corner. Eighty percent of the population here in Copenhagen are smoking. But if I smoke some stuff, I’m a criminal."


Maybe other cities and countries could follow their lead.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:35 am 
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1. I think there is big gap between pot and coke (as far as safety and usability) so that part of the article irks me.

2. The whole getting rid of gangs thing. I don't think they will magically go away if we legalize pot. I could be wrong though.

Other than that I don't think I have anything to say that hasn't been said before.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:36 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
1. I think there is big gap between pot and coke (as far as safety and usability) so that part of the article irks me.

2. The whole getting rid of gangs thing. I don't think they will magically go away if we legalize pot. I could be wrong though.

Other than that I don't think I have anything to say that hasn't been said before.


They will never go away, but they'd have less money and thus less power. I imagine there'd also be less 'turf wars' since they aren't selling drugs everywhere.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:27 am 
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I would imagine that selling pot is not the crux of any gang's business model. It is not addictive so the revenue stream is too uneven to be useful and the target market is most likely not located in the same areas as distributors. If they legalized heroin, meth, crack or coke then I could some legitimacy to their argument.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:16 pm 
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I think you may be falling prey to some stereotypes and misconceptions about drug use as well as gangs, Hop. The idea that gangs are limited to just the inner city is erroneous. You may be thinking of just the "street level", but those guys are just the most visible and the easiest for LE to make arrests and display them to the media.
Pot is BIG money to gangs. Its not like the pot magically makes it from points of entry to the suburbs (unless it's grown there heheh), most often drugs are channeled through gangs, to mid-level distributers, to individual dealers. Again, try not to limit your thinking to "street gang".
The use of drugs like heroin, meth or coke is not limited to "where the gangs are" - especially coke. You'll find a lot more powder coke use outside the "gang areas" while crack is used everywhere, I think that the target market for it is still poor people.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:34 pm 
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You can get 7.00 grams of pot for $20; 7.00 grams of heroin is $770; 7.00 grams of crack is $315 and 7.00 grams of meth would be a whopping $10,500. My argument is that gangs are making the bulk of their money off of addicts and hard-core drugs and weed prices and usage don't seem like much of a cash cow. So removing weed won't really affect them all that much is my hypothesis, supported by continued gang activity in CA and CO.

*http://www.dopestats.com/dopestats/index.jsp

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Once again: there's utterly no logical reason for marijuana to be illegal, either by production or consumption. Trying to maintain its illegality is costly and wasteful. Just legalize and tax it already. There are only pluses...the minuses are absorbed by the risk presented by drugs already legally available. (alcohol, tobacco).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
You can get 7.00 grams of pot for $20; 7.00 grams of heroin is $770; 7.00 grams of crack is $315 and 7.00 grams of meth would be a whopping $10,500. My argument is that gangs are making the bulk of their money off of addicts and hard-core drugs and weed prices and usage don't seem like much of a cash cow. So removing weed won't really affect them all that much is my hypothesis, supported by continued gang activity in CA and CO.

*http://www.dopestats.com/dopestats/index.jsp


How many heroin, crack and meth users are there in the US? How many pot users? How much $ is the pot trade in the US worth versus heroin meth and crack? What's the percentage of "legal" pot smokers in the 16 states where medical marijuana is legal versus the "illegal" users?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
How many heroin, crack and meth users are there in the US?

2009 numbers: 605,000, 4,800,000 and 1,200,000 respectively
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How many pot users?

17,400,000
Quote:
How much $ is the pot trade in the US worth versus heroin meth and crack?

all numbers presented respectively
$148.1bn (GLOBAL)
$68bn (GLOBAL)
$28.25bn (GLOBAL)
$85bn(GLOBAL)
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What's the percentage of "legal" pot smokers in the 16 states where medical marijuana is legal versus the "illegal" users?

That doesn't really matter, what does matter is gang activity in the 16 states where it is legal. Is it on the decline, increasing or unchanged? If it is not declining then this disproves the theory that gangs rely on marijuana revenue to support their infrastructure and business models.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Would you mind linking to where you got your numbers?

As for the gang activity where it's "legal". There are three things I'd like you to consider:
1) it's still not "legal.
2) If most of the people are still buying their pot from non-medical sources it doesn't necessarily follow that the quasi-legality it enjoys in those states is impinging on the illegal trade (at least enough to make a difference).
3) As I stated before the most recognizable gang activity (street gang level) doesn't paint a very clear picture of the whole.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Would you mind linking to where you got your numbers?

Sure, it is http://www.havocscope.com/

Vindicarre wrote:
As for the gang activity where it's "legal". There are three things I'd like you to consider:
1) it's still not "legal.
2) If most of the people are still buying their pot from non-medical sources it doesn't necessarily follow that the quasi-legality it enjoys in those states is impinging on the illegal trade (at least enough to make a difference).
3) As I stated before the most recognizable gang activity (street gang level) doesn't paint a very clear picture of the whole.

All fair points. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens in Sweden.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
You can get 7.00 grams of pot for $20...


Numbers may not be completely accurate. 7g of marijuana (1/4 oz) here runs $100 avg. If you buy an oz. at a time you may get a discount though.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
You can get 7.00 grams of pot for $20...


Numbers may not be completely accurate. 7g of marijuana (1/4 oz) here runs $100 avg. If you buy an oz. at a time you may get a discount though.

Good point, the numbers I linked to above are the national average for price from 2009 and the global market for all drugs. You can if you were so inclined drill down to the municipal level within the US to get local drug prices.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:27 pm 
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The site you gave listed all of cocaine use (not just crack) as being $35B in the US.

The $28.25B globally is for all amphetamines, not just meth, but their source gives a 57% use of supply in North America

That site listed many of it's sources as coming from here (a report I had seen when I asked for numbers from you cuz I didn't want to do the math and hoped you'd find something more simple :oops: )for heroin showing that the US & Canada only consumed 6% of the global heroin used. 20MT used in the US = 20,000,000 grams @ $131 per. I get $2.62B.

Coke in the US is $35B
Heroin is $2.62B
Amphetamines $25.4B

I just wanted to illustrate that pot use is probably at least equal to all those other drugs combines by $ value. I think it would be shortsighted to think that much revenue going away wouldn't hurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:51 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
I just wanted to illustrate that pot use is probably at least equal to all those other drugs combined by $ value. I think it would be shortsighted to think that much revenue going away wouldn't hurt.


Agree. There's a ton of money in it. Anecdotal as it may be, the majority of people I know consider smoking weed to be more acceptable than smoking cigarettes. It's everywhere already, and most people don't even care because most people can't even tell.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
I just wanted to illustrate that pot use is probably at least equal to all those other drugs combined by $ value. I think it would be shortsighted to think that much revenue going away wouldn't hurt.


Agree. There's a ton of money in it. Anecdotal as it may be, the majority of people I know consider smoking weed to be more acceptable than smoking cigarettes. It's everywhere already, and most people don't even care because most people can't even tell.


It's funny you mention this, because I've noticed the same thing in people's attitudes.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Legalizing pot might have a serious financial impact on gangs, but it would certainly not make them go away, or even weaken them. Gangs don't need money to exist or work as a gang, the point of the money is to live well. People join gangs initially for protection, acceptance, control over their environment and a sense of power. Money might be attractive, but it's not the reason. All legalizing pot would do is cut down on their bling, and big screen TVs.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Legalizing pit might have a serious financial impact on gangs, but it would certainly not make them go away, or even weaken them. Gangs don't need money to exist or work as a gang, the point of the money is to live well. People join gangs initially for protection, acceptance, control over their environment and a sense of power. Money might be attractive, but it's not the reason. All legalizing pot would do is cut down on their bling, and big screen TVs.


I wonder if it will weaken their revenue or just force the gangs into seeking alternative ways to fund their activities. One thing we know, the markets will adjust. If the market for pot goes away, or isn't profitable anymore, then there may be an agressive expansion into the coke, crack, meth, and other drugs. So perhaps violence will increase, at least until the market corrects itsself.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:48 pm 
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They'll definitely come up with new ways to finance themselves, with varying degrees of success.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:05 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
All fair points. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens in Sweden.

Denmark. The story was written in Sweden. Copenhagen is in Denmark.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:38 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:40 am 
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I saw this series on DTv and found it pretty interesting. You can view it on YT in parts......here is the channel with all the separate parts to the series...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CK-FQuc ... B425464659

It was interesting in how the illegals were now growing it inside the US instead of bringing it across the border. Worth the watch, if you have the time.


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