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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Since robbery is defined as taking something by force, or threat of force, I'm going to have to throw that one out on principle.
So, you're saying (for our purposes) burglary without anyone but the thief present?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:48 pm 
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If there is any doubt at all whether someone's life or health is at risk, then deadly force is acceptable. I just think that straight out declaring that lethal force is acceptable in response to pure property crime is both ethically dubious and opens the door to predatory behavior. There are people twisted enough that would set out bait and then wait 100 yards away with a sniper rifle to kill anyone who goes for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
If there is any doubt at all whether someone's life or health is at risk, then deadly force is acceptable. I just think that straight out declaring that lethal force is acceptable in response to pure property crime is both ethically dubious and opens the door to predatory behavior.


It can also be considered predatory behavior to confine people in prison for defending their rights.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Is this one of those situations where the example is going to be refined and reworked until somone finally says "ok yeah thats not acceptable" then the other person will claim victory?

Cause I ain't going to be either one of those guys.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:26 pm 
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If someone takes what's mine, they've crossed a line peace loving people won't cross. I'm not inclined to spend much time trying to figure out just how far across that line they're willing to go.

I figure they've lost the right to influence where I aim once they've decided that what they want is more important than me keeping what I own.

That said, I've never seen anyone take what's mine, so my response is untested.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:39 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
All banter aside, what I think it really does come down to is whether or not you think (a) proportionality is a factor in judging the morality of a response to a crime; and (b) killing someone is a proportional response to a pure property crime involving little or no imminent risk of bodily harm. My view is that yes, proportionality matters, and no, deadly force is not a proportional response to a property crime.


The problem with this is that it's a stolen concept fallacy. Proportionality is all fine with you when there's a risk of bodily harm, but as soon as it becomes property crime, no amount of harm no matter how devastating to a person's material situation, justifies deadly force.

I don't see why it is you think human life is automatically worth more than any amount of property. A person choosing to steal or damage property is choosing to place those actions at higher value than his own life, for even if it were illegal to kill for those things he could never be certain someone wouldn't kill him anyhow. It seems to me this is really just about your own sensibilities being protected from harm.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
If there is any doubt at all whether someone's life or health is at risk, then deadly force is acceptable. I just think that straight out declaring that lethal force is acceptable in response to pure property crime is both ethically dubious and opens the door to predatory behavior. There are people twisted enough that would set out bait and then wait 100 yards away with a sniper rifle to kill anyone who goes for it.


When you abandon property, it is not stealing for someone else (either another citizen or the government) to take it. Any such predatory behavior would be murder; you cannot abandon property and then shoot someone for stealing it. If you intentionally create the appearance of abandoning it, you've abandoned it to any unknowing person acting in good faith.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:48 am 
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When you are deprived of property, it increases the chance of premature death. For example, if someone steals your car, you will have to buy a new one and then might not afford proper medical treatment six months later. It's most pronounced if you're a hunter gatherer, because if someone steals your large catch for the day then you and your family might be completely screwed. I'm just saying there's many aspects to this issue.


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