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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:36 pm 
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To be sure no one can "know" if he is guilty except himself.

Facts from a trial are not facts - they are presentations of some facts in certain light that have either been accepted or dismissed by lawyers, judges, and then the jury.

A fact could be "dna evidence links him to the crime scene" but there are false positives, bad lab procedure, lying lawyers, and that is just about the fact if the dna match is true. Linking to the crime scene encourages a whole other set of things which support allegation and imagination - not fact.

That's simply an example so I find it impossible that you could "know" he is guilty. You cannot. You can have been convinced that he is however.

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Khross
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
Khross:

I know you love to read. Read "Murdered by Mumia: A Life Sentence of Loss, Pain, and Injustice" It's short, under 400 pages. I am certain you could read it in 1 or 2 sittings.
I've read it; I handed it over to my fact-checkers; they said it was mostly bullshit. So I read the actual court proceedings from his conviction ...

And I don't give a **** about Faulkner or Mumia.

Oh, and no ...

Shooting the guy in the face after you've already shot him in the back? That's not premeditation.

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Corolinth
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Mumia Abu Jamal has maintained all this time they he did not kill Daniel Faulkner. He therefore can not possibly be repentant. You can not repent for a crime you did not commit. His damning lack of repentance is consistent with his claim that he is innocent.

Mumia Abu Jamal was promised a fair and impartial trial where he was presumed innocent until proven guilty. Mumia Abu Jamal received a biased trial where he was presumed guilty the moment he was accused of killing a police officer.

Consider the Duke Lacrosse case, where it required heroic efforts on the part of the defense attorney to produce DNA tests that exonerated the accused players. Consider the case of James Bain referenced at the end of that episode of Bullsh!t. Blood test analysis proved that he could not have raped the child. An FBI agent told the jury that they could not exclude James Bain as a suspect based on that blood analysis, and the jury convicted him. Consider OJ Simpson, who is still viewed by the public at large to be guilty despite his acquittal. It took the most skilled defense lawyers in the country to acquit him, and he is considered guilty precisely because he hired those lawyers.

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Khross
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Mumia Abu Jamal has maintained all this time they he did not kill Daniel Faulkner. He therefore can not possibly be repentant. You can not repent for a crime you did not commit. His damning lack of repentance is consistent with his claim that he is innocent.
Exactly ...
Corolinth wrote:
Mumia Abu Jamal was promised a fair and impartial trial where he was presumed innocent until proven guilty. Mumia Abu Jamal received a biased trial where he was presumed guilty the moment he was accused of killing a police officer.
Which is pretty much the only reason we've ever had a thread about Mumia and Faulkner.

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Corolinth
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Something else I would like to point out. As a citizen of the United States born sometime after, oh... how about 1970... I have two pieces of information to go on.

Mumia Abu Jamal just looks guilty.

Daniel Falkner just looks like a smarmy corrupt police officer.

Guess what valid conclusions I can make about the case based off of that?

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Lex Luthor
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I hope that he will one day be let free, either from an appeals process or because he will not be a danger into society.

Prison should be for two things, which are rehabilitation and keeping dangerous people away from society. All this medieval eye for an eye stuff is bullshit.

I can't wait until European social liberalism infects the states, so that we will abolish the death penalty and reform prisons.
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Hannibal
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:31 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
I hope he gets shanked in the gorram throat and both his hands chopped off so he can rot with the same ability to tell his story that Faulkner has. Really I just hope he vets put in general population so some other predatory scumbag can try to make a name for himself by finishing what the courts should have.


If put into general population, who is going to touch him? I thought cop-killers are legendary in prison.


African American who murdered a white guy- id say aryan nation, or nazi lowriders or any number of racially motivated nuts there. Or a guy who wants out of general population so by going after mumia, he gets isolated from others.

I think some here are missing what's going on here. There is no contesting of the verdict. Legally he is guilty and the sentance was rendered. The issue is the legal shell game going on. Well at least for me. The appeals were exhausted. The case was reviewed over and over and it was upheld. The reason for the change comes from judges who are attempting to change law rather than uphold it." Oh the jury could have confused the instructions 30 years ago- an unverifiable claim which was used to push the judges individual causes IMHO.

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Foamy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Quote:
Mumia Abu Jamal was promised a fair and impartial trial where he was presumed innocent until proven guilty. Mumia Abu Jamal received a biased trial where he was presumed guilty the moment he was accused of killing a police officer.


Presumption because he shot a police officer, huh.

How about the fact (or whatever term I'm supposed to user) that the ballistics of the bullet that killed Danny Faulkner match the weapon registered to, used and found in the possession of Mumia?

How about the eye witnesses's testimony that it was indeed Mumia that they saw shoot officer Faulkner in the back and then stand over him and shoot in the face?

How about Mumia in the emergency room stating "I shot that MotherF***er and I hope that motherF***er dies?"

How about Mumia's claims that the jury was racially stacked against him when he himself used one of his peremptory strikes to dismiss a black juror and the Prosecutor, who had more strikes did not use them to strike a black juror.

Khross, I don't ask that you give one damn about this case, but I don't know how you can flatly throw out all of what was presented in that book when what is presented is taken from the court proceedings. Everything I stated there can be found in the court proceedings.

I would like to reiterate that my stance on this is only partially based on it being a shooting of a LEO in the process of doing his duty. I stand strongly against the left-wing support that has rallyed behind him knowing nothing of the case. Only believing that it is another case of police corruption, race and political motivation.

Wesley Cook (Mumia abu Jamal) shot another man in the back and then proceeded to execute him at close range. He was tried and convicted fairly by a jury and received the death sentence. He then tried to manipulate the system to gain a new trial (this was a failure several times over) and in doing so has gained a following who see him as some sort of martyr. He is a convicted killer who deserves none of the notariety that he has gained. Failing the death penalty, I want him to fade into non-existence. Another statistic in the penal system. He deserves nothing but the cell he lives in.

There is nothing more for me to say here, only because despite my statements to the contrary, I will be seen as biased and everything I say can be thrown out. I don't know how to argue here if that is the case. It undermines my ability to have a say about anything.

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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:41 pm 
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The terminal ballistics match a caliber not a weapon exactly. And since it is an inexact science the conclusions are likewise inexact.

All the stuff about ballistics tracing you see on NICS is bullshit now - it was fart in your face bullshit 30 years ago.

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Lex Luthor
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Just because he made one action in a few seconds doesn't mean 'he deserves nothing but the cell he lives in'. You have a faulty premise that you can't logically substantiate, and is just your infantile emotion about the situation.
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Elmarnieh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:46 pm 
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Study how inaccurate witness testimony actually is Foamy then come back and say it is something even close to "fact".

Going through Voir Dire doesn't negate that a jury could be racially motivated regardless of what occurs during it.

You're taking as dismissive statements which don't logically result in dismissing such claims.

Also inserting the word "fairly" is an injection of your personal belief and actually shows your bias.

It doesn't undermine your ability to have a say - but it does make you seem ridiculous when you state as fact something you could not possibly know as fact. Additionally you've rebuffed any attempt to even entertain the fact that you could be wrong - which is the definition of a closed mind. And instead of being upset at yourself for being close minded you seem upset at us for exposing your poor logic in stating unknowable items as absolutes.

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Foamy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:50 pm 
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For Elmo:

Testimony and reports from the ballistics expert that tie the fatal bullet to Mumia's gun.

Come on, you know me well enough. I don't watch NCIS. I hate just about everything on TV. Especially prime time cop drama. Admittedly, I got hooked on CSI for a short while, but that came to a quick end. Trust me, I don't buy into anything that TV or action movies present as reality.

Anyway, read and make up your own mind. No bias, just facts. Consider what Hannibal said too. The question here isn't about guilt, his conviction has been upheld several times over.

Spoiler:
WHAT DID THE BALLISTICS REPORTS
REVEAL ABOUT THE GUN AND BULLET?

In the 1982 trial, the prosecution Firearms Examiner, Anthony Paul, was asked if the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain was consistent with having been fired from a Charter Arms .38 caliber revolver (the type of gun owned by Jamal and found next to him at the scene). Paul states that it is.

Paul: "It's possible to say that it [the bullet which killed Officer Faulkner] was fired from a revolver with that type of rifling, with the Charter Arms type of rifling."

N.T. 6/23/82, 6.110

Later at trial, defense attorney Anthony Jackson asks Anthony Paul if the general rifling characteristics etched of the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain matched the pattern found in the barrel of Jamal's gun. Mr. Paul states that they clearly do match Jamal's gun.

"The general characteristics being part of the eight lands and grooves and a right hand direction of twist, you have a part of that [bullet] still exposed with sufficient quantity to be able to say that a firearm rifled with eight lands and grooves with a right hand direction of twist discharged that projectile."

N.T. 6/23/82, 6.168

Anthony Paul goes on to state that there are many .38 caliber handguns with eight lands and grooves and a right hand twist, and that the fatal bullet was so deformed that it could not be scientifically matched to Jamal's gun to the exclusion of all other firearms. However, he stresses the fact that there was one, and only one, gun with all of these characteristics at the crime scene -- the gun owned by Mumia Abu-Jamal. This is the same gun that was registered in Jamal's name and that was found next to him at the crime scene less than a minute after the shooting. By any rational standard, these facts show that the fatal bullet was fired from Jamal's gun.

In addition to matching the general rifling characteristics of the gun used to kill Officer Faulkner, Jamal's five-shot Charter Arms handgun contained five spent casings from hollow-base .38 caliber high velocity Special +P ammunition. Of the shells found in Jamal's gun, all were +P ammunition, (4 were Federal brand and 1 Remington). In 1981, Federal was the only brand of +P ammunition that had a hollow base. Additionally, Anthony Paul acknowledged that the +P bullet was a type of ammunition that was rarely seen in 1981. Anthony Paul commented that the +P is a unique bullet, with an extra heavy load of gunpowder. It so devastates its target that police departments are restricted from using it.

This extensive ballistics evidence clearly ties Jamal's gun to the murder. But his attorneys and supporters simply ignore this evidence, hide it, or act as if it doesn't exist.

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Last edited by Foamy on Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Khross
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
Khross, I don't ask that you give one damn about this case, but I don't know how you can flatly throw out all of what was presented in that book when what is presented is taken from the court proceedings. Everything I stated there can be found in the court proceedings.
I "can flatly throw out all of what was presented in that book" because the book has an obvious and unabashed bias and agenda. Facts used poorly stink just as bad as other bullshit.

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Last edited by Khross on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elmarnieh
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
For Elmo:

Testimony and reports from the ballistics expert that tie the fatal bullet to Mumia's gun.

Come on, you know me well enough. I don't watch NCIS. I hate just about everything on TV. Especially prime time cop drama. Admittedly, I got hooked on CSI for a short while, but that came to a quick end. Trust me, I don't buy into anything that TV or action movies present as reality.

Anyway, read and make up your own mind. No bias, just facts. Consider what Hannibal said too. The question here isn't about guilt, his conviction has been upheld several times over.

Spoiler:
WHAT DID THE BALLISTICS REPORTS
REVEAL ABOUT THE GUN AND BULLET?

In the 1982 trial, the prosecution Firearms Examiner, Anthony Paul, was asked if the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain was consistent with having been fired from a Charter Arms .38 caliber revolver (the type of gun owned by Jamal and found next to him at the scene). Paul states that it is.

Paul: "It's possible to say that it [the bullet which killed Officer Faulkner] was fired from a revolver with that type of rifling, with the Charter Arms type of rifling."

N.T. 6/23/82, 6.110

Later at trial, defense attorney Anthony Jackson asks Anthony Paul if the general rifling characteristics etched of the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain matched the pattern found in the barrel of Jamal's gun. Mr. Paul states that they clearly do match Jamal's gun.

"The general characteristics being part of the eight lands and grooves and a right hand direction of twist, you have a part of that [bullet] still exposed with sufficient quantity to be able to say that a firearm rifled with eight lands and grooves with a right hand direction of twist discharged that projectile."

N.T. 6/23/82, 6.168

Anthony Paul goes on to state that there are many .38 caliber handguns with eight lands and grooves and a right hand twist, and that the fatal bullet was so deformed that it could not be scientifically matched to Jamal's gun to the exclusion of all other firearms. However, he stresses the fact that there was one, and only one, gun with all of these characteristics at the crime scene -- the gun owned by Mumia Abu-Jamal. This is the same gun that was registered in Jamal's name and that was found next to him at the crime scene less than a minute after the shooting. By any rational standard, these facts show that the fatal bullet was fired from Jamal's gun.

In addition to matching the general rifling characteristics of the gun used to kill Officer Faulkner, Jamal's five-shot Charter Arms handgun contained five spent casings from hollow-base .38 caliber high velocity Special +P ammunition. Of the shells found in Jamal's gun, all were +P ammunition, (4 were Federal brand and 1 Remington). In 1981, Federal was the only brand of +P ammunition that had a hollow base. Additionally, Anthony Paul acknowledged that the +P bullet was a type of ammunition that was rarely seen in 1981. Anthony Paul commented that the +P is a unique bullet, with an extra heavy load of gunpowder. It so devastates its target that police departments are restricted from using it.

This extensive ballistics evidence clearly ties Jamal's gun to the murder. But his attorneys and supporters simply ignore this evidence, hide it, or act as if it doesn't exist.



That isn't much of a match. It was a bullet of the caliber fired from a gun that matches the rifling pattern in the suspect's gun. (As it would match any handgun with that kind of rifling). The rifling is usually designed for the type of cartridge the firearm will fire. Bullet weight, length, and normal powder charge.

For example the rifling twist in a 5.56 AR-15 standard length will tend to be near the same if not exactly the same. A bullet fired in Hannibal's M-4 (since our twist pattern is the same) also match my firearm and several hundreds of thousands of other firearms across the nation (not necessarily just AR-15's either). Additionally if you carry a firearm for self defense and your firearm can handle the additional chamber pressure almost every will be carrying +P ammunition.

So what it says is that it was a .38 special round fired from a gun chambered in .38 special that has rifling that is designed for .38 special and a very common kind of ammunition made for self-defense.

Back then that was before the big rise in semi-autos so .38 special was likely the most common caliber of handgun in the US (including use by police and detectives).

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Foamy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Foamy wrote:
Khross:

I know you love to read. Read "Murdered by Mumia: A Life Sentence of Loss, Pain, and Injustice" It's short, under 400 pages. I am certain you could read it in 1 or 2 sittings.
I've read it; I handed it over to my fact-checkers; they said it was mostly bullshit. So I read the actual court proceedings from his conviction ...

And I don't give a **** about Faulkner or Mumia.

Oh, and no ...

Shooting the guy in the face after you've already shot him in the back? That's not premeditation.


Khross:

I ask this independent of the Mumia discussion. I really just don't understand your line of thinking here.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001111----000-.html
Quote:
§ 1111. MURDER
How Current is This?
(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing; or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children; or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree.


Also, the wiki article I posted references premeditation as "doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension."

If running up behind someone, shooting them in the back and then straddling them while shooting 4 more times at point blank range isn't premeditation, then please enlighten me Khross, what is? What was he doing if not trying to avoid apprenhension?

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Last edited by Foamy on Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rynar
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Your description is one of meditated murder, but not premeditated. Premeditated describes an act which is plotted and planned before the commitment of the act. Premeditated cannot be something that happens as a snap decision in the middle of a crime of another description. Use of the term "premeditated" here demonstrates a preconceived bias, and nothing more.

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Khross
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Foamy:

Rynar pretty much has the right of it.

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Foamy
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Then I strike the word premeditated from the record and in it's place add 'Murder in the first degree' which is what he was convicted of.

I was not using it as a bias word, rather I thought it explained itself without bias.

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Doesn't matter if he's actually guilty or not. Governments shouldn't be able to execute anyone, and not only because the error rate when it comes to conviction is already high, but because a government given the power to execute its citizens will execute them, with no guarantee that its criteria remain condusive to freedom.

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Talya wrote:
Doesn't matter if he's actually guilty or not. Governments shouldn't be able to execute anyone, and not only because the error rate when it comes to conviction is already high, but because a government given the power to execute its citizens will execute them, with no guarantee that its criteria remain condusive to freedom.


Exactly so.

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Foamy
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Hannibal wrote:
African American who murdered a white guy- id say aryan nation, or nazi lowriders or any number of racially motivated nuts there. Or a guy who wants out of general population so by going after mumia, he gets isolated from others.


Maybe Caleb will do it.

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Arathain Kelvar
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It's amazing to me how many of you are dancing around Foamy's point, without addressing it at all.

1) He's guilty, per the legal system.
2) He was sentenced to death, per the legal system.
3) Whether or not people should be sentenced to death is completely irrelevant.
4) And his point - after all this, including upheld convictions, he's not to be executed for reasons that are pretty shady.
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RangerDave
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On the premeditation issue, Foamy has the right of it. The exact definition varies state to state, but basically all that's required is a moment's reflection and, in that moment, an affirmative decision to kill. In popular media, "premeditated murder" is usually used in reference to some long, drawn-out plot to kill someone, but in actual legal practice, a brief pause in the action before the killing blow is often all that's required to satisfy the premeditation element.

On the Mumia situation generally, I don't really know enough to form an opinion, but I'm curious, Foamy, whether you think there were any procedural violations and/or racial bias in Mumia's original trial and the cops' handling of the evidence leading up to it. Are all the alleged improprieties entirely b.s., in your opinion, or is there some merit to the allegations?
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Hannibal
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Foamy wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
African American who murdered a white guy- id say aryan nation, or nazi lowriders or any number of racially motivated nuts there. Or a guy who wants out of general population so by going after mumia, he gets isolated from others.


Maybe Caleb will do it.



Wow I haven't thought of that scumbag in forever. Wonder if he's still being kept isolated from everyone?

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Diamondeye
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I'm rather glad he's not to be executed so as to avoid creating a martyr.

That said, no one would be defending this ******* or calling into question the fairness of his trial if he'd killed anyone but a police officer. If he'd simply killed a white civilian that pulled a gun to defend himself, there would be not one iota of criticism of the fairness of his trial.

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