The Glade 4.0

Except your reason has no scientific backing and the person currently being unreasonable in your opinion is being reasonable by providing an explination which you obviously did not read.
Answer 1 question for me Elmo. If there are no beginning to a life, how can there be an ending? If there are no ending, then how do you define death?
For your information, the link I posted is from a very good source describing what constitutes life. It doesn't in anyway take away your point that viable zygotes grow up to be human, nor does it invalidate my point of thinking of things in terms of what they are, rather than what they will be.
How could you stand there and call me unreasonable, when you refuse to look at the evidence I provide from a reputable source, show a clear bias entering into the view of these very informed papers and refuse to give more reputable sources for consideration other than your own "I said so".

I apologise that I will not take your word as fact, this is a bad habbit I have from childhood. I refuse to take what people say as fact, even if they were telling me the sky is blue. I want to know what makes the sky blue and why. I know it can be very frustrating sometimes... humour me and give me a reasonable scientific based reason.

The link is one man's opinion that contains several obvious flaws. Lets take his example of a species who is now immortal since their regeneration mechanism is superb but they lack any engine of adaptability (they don't have wise council of elders). By his extremely limited definition we would not be able to call those people alive when obviously they are. (Not that I see any reason to use his characteristics as lord above all even without this flaw.)

I never said life itself as the broad concept has no beginning nor an end. Life obviously on this planet sometime after its formation. However since we do not know when and how anything else is pure conjecture. It's end I suspect will occur before the heat death of the universe as the future is also conjecture its entirely moot.

Now if we are talking about the measurement of individual life or death then that is an entirely different animal. We can point to individual life beginning the first time that you can trace that life down to its smallest independent existence. In the case of humans it is the fertilized egg whereas before that occurs they were cells belonging to and manufactured wholly by another distinct creature. When life ends for an individual is still much for debate however we have assumed life's end is irrevocable once all brain activity has ended.

I would never ask anyone to take what I say for fact. I merely ask that they let go of their current notions and apply nothing but rational thought. I believe you are capable of such which is what has made this discussion entirely maddening for me.

I ask that you disregard the term "viable" as I've said it is not a term that defines a condition (life or not) but it attempts to asses an already assumed condition by its future (continued life or not). Which makes it an extremely irrelevant term when discussion focuses on solely that condition. (I've already made the argument that by merely judging the viability of a fetus implicitly accepts that it is alive). For example if we took the long view - none of us are viable in 200 years does this now invalidate our status of living?

Aside from asking you to use a rational standard and surrender the attempt to apply a term that is out of scope of our discussion I can only reiterate what I've already stated. That it is an impossibility for an nonliving object to become living. That it is fact that any being that is currently alive must have been alive at all points of its growth in the past. That the judgment of living or nonliving is made on an entity by the whole - not in parts or snapshots of its life. That a creature is alive or not in the present regardless of its likelihood to remain alive in some future condition.

I would like to know exactly which one of those seems so terribly unreasonable to you.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I read the article quite a while ago.

That was just a point of order. I'm pretty sure Godwon's doesn't apply. I can change it to Stalin of you'd like.

(Note: above posted purely for humor. Not an attempt to undercut moderation or be a vigilante. Those feeling their "report post" button is underused, please spray it with some WD-40. thanks.)

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Mentioning Hitler doesn't invoke Godwin's Law. One must actually make an analogy that suggests someone is a Nazi or Hitler before it applies. While there is some comparison here, it's not really in the spirit of Godwin's Law...merely comparing "death" totals.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Dear Lord, the blue color calls plenty of attention to the post. Doe it have to be in "Huge" font too?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Well, some people get very pissy if a mod says something that they may (even only slightly) disagree with if it's not in Mod-O-Text.

I can understand playing it safe.

... I think the red bold text that's become the de-facto standard is quite safe.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Micheal has expressed disdain for the red text. /shrug

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Her viewpoint contradicts your response to me. You cannot therefore agree with what she said and have logically made your response.

Reconcile your viewpoint.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Case in point...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576311,00.html

Sheesh...how freaky would that be. Able to hear what everyone is saying, but no way to move or communicate.

I saw that on a chance opening of IE to MSN.

It's okay. He was declared brain-dead, so it's not like he was a person anymore.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

A misdiagnosis does not bring the brain wave idea into question.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

It wasn't a misdiagnosis. He had no detectable brain wave activity. He was, by medical definitions, brain dead.

You have declared that brain death is the point where somebody stops being a person.

If you had your say, any court in the world would have declared this guy, who eventually recovered, to have no rights and no person-hood, because the doctors were all sure he was brain dead.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

This is really a key word.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

And that was really all my point was on this. I feel uncomfortable about the issue, since our knowledge is not perfect.

See, Aegnor caught on.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

True, and wisdom says you err on the side of caution when you don't know.

Too some extent, yes. But I don't like that answer either. Keeping someone alive that is brain dead with no hope of recovery doesn't sound like a good option either. I don't claim to have the answer though. What's option C?

What I find amusing, Beryllin, is with your stated beliefs on everyone dying at a specific time that God has decided, with nothing being able to change that, there's no such thing as an abortion. They were all needless...because if they hadn't aborted, they'd have miscarried anyway. It was their time.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Well, in the case of brain death, vegetative states, etc. option C is creating a living will and discussing your wishes with those who hold your medical power of attorney.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

On the lighter side of this discussion:

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

But to make that argument, Talya, you have to conclude that murder does not exist. It matters whether a person dies because a bus hits him or a criminal shoots him. Yes, it was his time to die. Cause of death matters a lot.

True, I believe God numbers the days of all His creation. That does not mean you give a pass to those whose actions cause the death of someone.

Now we're just getting into the free-will vs. omnipotence/deterministicism etc. This question has been around for a long time; it predates St. Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle etc.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones