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 Post subject: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:49 am 
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http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/839811 ... ugs-in-car

Looks like it to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:13 pm 
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I'm somewhat skeptical.....why is an Australian news site running this while US sites aren't?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Wow. That's horrible.

I don't understand the motivation for planting evidence. What's the point.

/summon DE

Can you explain the motivation for this type of behavior? It's dangerous for the officer, obviously, as it is a violation of the law. Also, it ruins someone's life. Why? What's in it for the officer?


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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'm somewhat skeptical.....why is an Australian news site running this while US sites aren't?


It's all over the place.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:21 pm 
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I am also curious about this video. It's not like the dashboard cam hasn't been in cop cars for 15+ years now. Why would you do something like that in plain sight of it?

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm somewhat skeptical.....why is an Australian news site running this while US sites aren't?


It's all over the place.


I checked CNN, MSNBC, Fox and didn't see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm somewhat skeptical.....why is an Australian news site running this while US sites aren't?


It's all over the place.


I checked CNN, MSNBC, Fox and didn't see it.



You're "somewhat skeptical" of the visual evidence you've seen with your own eyes, or you're "somewhat skeptical" of the MSM that isn't covering it?

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
You're "somewhat skeptical" of the visual evidence you've seen with your own eyes, or you're "somewhat skeptical" of the MSM that isn't covering it?

There's no context on the site suggesting there were charges filed or anything... while it's a very suspicious activity on the face of it, there isn't anything more to go on.

There needs to be a story to go along with this that identified the guy that was pulled over and info about the charges filed against him that included evidence like what the video showed the cop pulling out of his pocket.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:41 pm 
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It a year ago - Feb 2011, it's not breaking news. That wasn't the whole tape. They dropped the cocaine charges (the baggie seen in the video), but kept pot charges (found on the person, the search not shown in the video).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
They dropped the cocaine charges (the baggie seen in the video)

So, was he charged with possessing it and then they dropped the charges, or were there never charges against him for possessing it?

'Cause pulling a bag out of their pocket and saying "Well, lookie here what I found in your car!" is a lousy rotten trick but not more than that, if they don't do more.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:54 pm 
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The charges were dropped.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Then the cops should be charged with making false statements, etc., and all the charges against this guy (and any others convicted in the past) should have the statements and evidence gathered by these cops thrown out.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Except it's still not clear where the baggie that the cop pulled out of his pocket came from. The official line is that it was found on the handcuffed guy and put in the cop's pocket for safe-keeping. In the end, it looked to me like stupid, but not criminal on the cop's part.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Yeah, but to me, that's for the court to decide, and I don't see how the court could decide anything other than the cops suck at being cops. Anything other than "bag it and tag it" leaves a door open that shouldn't be.

Of course, it COULD be that I've seen too much CSI...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:04 pm 
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It's on Y! News now..

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-no ... 00852.html

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Many of us have made the mistake of seeing a snippet of something and drawing a conclusion that we may not have come to had we seen the entire story. That situation seems to be happening in Utica, New York. Over the weekend, Utica Phoenix, a weekly local newspaper, released a one-minute and 40-second dashcam video from last year that shows police officers pulling over a vehicle for allegedly running a stop sign.

The video captures what seems to be a police officer planting drugs. One minute into the video, the officer appears to take an unidentified bag and place it in an unidentified African American man's car. The officer then takes the same bag out of the car. The video was spread in social media and sparked so much interest (64,000 views in fewer than 24 hours) that it caused the newspaper site to crash.

In response to the uproar, the Utica Police Department released the entire 30-minute dashcam video, which Police Chief Mark Williams says gives the whole story. He says the officer in question was trying to separate drugs from the defendants and only put it in his pocket because it was cold outside and he wanted to keep his hands free. Williams also says the officer can be seen pulling a similar bag from the suspect's jacket pocket. He also added that because the officer is the one who turned on the dashcam, why would he incriminate himself by planting drugs? A department spokesperson, Sgt. Steve Hauck, further stated that the officers didn't violate protocol by storing evidence in their pockets during an outdoor traffic stop in freezing cold weather. The NAACP and the FBI are investigating.

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Is there any better site for video? One with sound, perhaps? Cruiser-cams are supposed to have a little speaker-pack you wear on your belt to provide audio. It'd also be nice to have one that doesn't automatically cut to an ad, then to another, unrelated video when it's done.

Without more information, it looks like colossal stupidity on the part of the cop looking in the car. It's believable that he took a baggie of cocaine off the guy and stuck it is his pocket (you've got to put it somewhere while you finish searching) but then why pull it out while you're searching the car in that fashion - and right in front of the camera? Ok, maybe to justify charges against the guy, but who in the hell just happens to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop?

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Ok, maybe to justify charges against the guy, but who in the hell just happens to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop?

Look, DE -- I don't get on your case about your cop-colored glasses very often, but, really, this is just begging for it.

Cops, apparently, happen to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop, from the way this looks (his protestations aside).

Now, perhaps, you see why people feel the way they do about cops.

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Ok, maybe to justify charges against the guy, but who in the hell just happens to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop?

Look, DE -- I don't get on your case about your cop-colored glasses very often, but, really, this is just begging for it.


Yes, because accusing him of colossal stupidity is clearly a case of having "cop-colored glasses." :roll: Do you seriously think that most cops actually have a baggie of drugs handy "just in case?" How would drug-finding canines ever work if this were the case; they'd be constantly confused and alerting. Where do the drugs come from? How come they don't get caught with them on a regular basis if they just keep them right there in a hip pocket?

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Cops, apparently, happen to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop, from the way this looks (his protestations aside).


Even assuming its true in this particular case, how exactly does that generalize to "cops"? More directly important to this case, yes, it "looks" that way - but you can't simply use the fact that it looks that way to disregard arguments that it might possibly be a case of something other than what it looks like. That's blatant begging the question.

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Now, perhaps, you see why people feel the way they do about cops.


Because they assume only the most negative possible explanation for events is true, and even the possibility of something else being pointed out somehow becomes "rose-colored glasses".

Now maybe you'll understand why I "defend" cops so much - because of this habit of assuming there's no room whatsoever for discussion, debate, or doubt. I'm not defending this guy at all; I'm pointing out that "moron" is a reasonable explanation alongside "criminal" in the absence of more evidence - especially in the absence of audio that really should be there. Why is it not there? Why is the video truncated?

Do those facts dismiss the possibility that he was planting evidence? Not at all, but they certainly call into question the supposed certainty of it. There's definitely "reasonable doubt".

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:56 pm 
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I must be on a lot of ignores.

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In response to the uproar, the Utica Police Department released the entire 30-minute dashcam video, which Police Chief Mark Williams says gives the whole story. He says the officer in question was trying to separate drugs from the defendants and only put it in his pocket because it was cold outside and he wanted to keep his hands free. Williams also says the officer can be seen pulling a similar bag from the suspect's jacket pocket. He also added that because the officer is the one who turned on the dashcam, why would he incriminate himself by planting drugs? A department spokesperson, Sgt. Steve Hauck, further stated that the officers didn't violate protocol by storing evidence in their pockets during an outdoor traffic stop in freezing cold weather. The NAACP and the FBI are investigating.

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 Post subject: Re: Planted evidence?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Ok, maybe to justify charges against the guy, but who in the hell just happens to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop?

Look, DE -- I don't get on your case about your cop-colored glasses very often, but, really, this is just begging for it.

Cops, apparently, happen to have a baggie of cocaine handy to plant on some random guy in a traffic stop, from the way this looks (his protestations aside).

Now, perhaps, you see why people feel the way they do about cops.


I don't think you're firing on all cylinders on this one Kaffis. DE said almost the same things I did, and I surely wouldn't be accused of wearing cop-colored glasses.

I think because DE is/was an honest, and by all evidence, good cop, the fact that he can't fathom keeping a baggie of coke handy to plant makes perfect sense. It takes a very "special" mindset to have that much premeditated forethought.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:44 pm 
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My point was simply that, no matter the reasons for him not fathoming keeping a bag of coke handy, the notion that he would ask the question of why other people might shows his blind spot pretty clearly, especially when there's a video that the entire thread is about that makes the answer to "who would do that!?" clearly "That guy, apparently."

Just because you're a clean cop doesn't excuse having a blind spot that causes you to be unable to observe that some cops aren't, and it's that blind spot that is, I believe, at the crux of the vast majority of his disagreements and arguments with others on all matters cop here in Hellfire.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
the answer to "who would do that!?" clearly "That guy, apparently."


:lol:
I have to admit, that was my immediate reaction too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
My point was simply that, no matter the reasons for him not fathoming keeping a bag of coke handy, the notion that he would ask the question of why other people might shows his blind spot pretty clearly, especially when there's a video that the entire thread is about that makes the answer to "who would do that!?" clearly "That guy, apparently."

Just because you're a clean cop doesn't excuse having a blind spot that causes you to be unable to observe that some cops aren't, and it's that blind spot that is, I believe, at the crux of the vast majority of his disagreements and arguments with others on all matters cop here in Hellfire.


Again, you're begging the question. That video is enough evidence to say "that cop is probably dirty" not "that cop is definitely dirty". You can't dismiss points that call into question the finality of the video evidence by citing that same finality. It's a circular argument.

The video is very strong - near-conclusive- evidence that he was doing something improper. It is not as strong (although still better than 50% likely) evidence that he was planting drugs; it is enough to make that charge against him, but not enough to convict him.

The biggest problem is why is there no audio? There should be. Without that audio, and almost as important, without an explanation as to why only 30 seconds are shown, there's considerable room to question the conclusion that he was planting drugs - not that he was doing something he shouldn't because he clearly was even if it was only carelessness with evidence, but what the exact nature of that impropriety was is very much open to question.

If you want people to question the government and question authority, you shouldn't be so eager to dismiss questions that go the other way in such an out-of-hand fashion. Let's pretend for a second that I could show conclusive evidence that this officer simply put the cocaine in his pocket in the course of a search, then, not thinking, pulled it out again while he was searching the car. Let's further pretend that I can also provide conclusive evidence that the news site in question truncated the video and suppressed the audio in order to make it appear the officer planted the evidence. (I can't show such evidence, and I'm not claiming it's likely such evidence will appear; this is purely hypothetical). What then?

That's the problem. Is that an unlikely scenario? Yes. But what if the audio simply wasn't working and the video was truncated because the newspaper simply didn't look carefully and only showed what they thought was relevant, but I could produce a full video that showed him taking the baggie off the guy and putting it in his pocket? Is that unlikely? Maybe, maybe not. It's likely enough that the conclusion that he planted evidence intentionally needs more than just a 30-second audioless video, and I guarantee if he were charged, he would be acquitted for exactly that reason, barring a terribly inept lawyer.

The fact is that while that evidence isn't available now, it could come to light since we know perfectly well that his cruiser camera didn't just work for those exact 30 seconds, not before and after.

I'm not arguing at all that he didn't plant evidence, or even that it's unlikely - just that it's far from proven beyond reasonable doubt at this point, and I'm doing it based on deficiencies in the video that demonstrably exist. You can't reasonably demand that I accept your conclusion about what the video shows then turn around and dismiss problems with the video out of hand based upon your own conclusion.

Again, if you want to question, you have to accept that you can be questioned.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Here, let me try...

Hopwin wrote:
I must be on a lot of ignores.

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In response to the uproar, the Utica Police Department released the entire 30-minute dashcam video, which Police Chief Mark Williams says gives the whole story. He says the officer in question was trying to separate drugs from the defendants and only put it in his pocket because it was cold outside and he wanted to keep his hands free. Williams also says the officer can be seen pulling a similar bag from the suspect's jacket pocket. He also added that because the officer is the one who turned on the dashcam, why would he incriminate himself by planting drugs? A department spokesperson, Sgt. Steve Hauck, further stated that the officers didn't violate protocol by storing evidence in their pockets during an outdoor traffic stop in freezing cold weather. The NAACP and the FBI are investigating.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:06 pm 
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As a general rule (ignoring this case), why would an occasional cop plant evidence?

Because they know the guy is guilty, and need something to make it stick.

(Which, by the way, appears to me to be one reason why Orenthal James Simpson was found innocent of murder - that stupid "bloody glove" may have been the dumbest police plant of all time.)

Problem is, due process exists for a reason. If a cop can't get enough evidence on a guy who he "knows" is guilty, the that guy shouldn't be arrested. Manufacturing evidence is a bad idea, and even DE will agree.

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