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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Taly,

Do you cede the point that artists make money off of residual sales of the material?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Taly,

Do you cede the point that artists make money off of residual sales of the material?


To a degree.

Note that piracy has been proven to increase sales (at least in the case of music), not decrease them. Every time the industry and law tries to come down hard on piracy, sales drop. The Canadian record label "Nettwerk" (Sarah McLachlan, Barenaked Ladies, Avril Lavigne, etc.) realized this, made all their music free-to-download, and left the Canadian Recording Industry Association.

Their sales skyrocketed, and not just with the publicity it generated. The thing is, piracy is free advertising.

This leads one to wonder "If piracy boosts sales, why are the record labels so against it?" Because, ultimately, it has nothing to do with sales, and everything to do with control. This control is not just controlling how the consumer uses their product, but maintaining their relevance as a "middle man." With the internet as a viable distribution method, without studio control, the RIAA risks becoming an irrelevant middle-man, with artists taking on the profits themselves rather than taking a mere pittance from a greedy industry that contributes nothing, just feeding off the work of others.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Taly,

Do you cede the point that artists make money off of residual sales of the material?


To a degree.

Note that piracy has been proven to increase sales (at least in the case of music), not decrease them. Every time the industry and law tries to come down hard on piracy, sales drop.


Citation?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Taly,

Do you cede the point that artists make money off of residual sales of the material?


To a degree.

Note that piracy has been proven to increase sales (at least in the case of music), not decrease them. Every time the industry and law tries to come down hard on piracy, sales drop.


Citation?


Most of them are too old to find, now, having been buried by hundreds of fake industry studies. (Music sales rose rapidly during the Napster era, only to take a massive dive when Napster was shut down. Similarly, during the few years that the RIAA was suing every grandmother who happened to get a dynamic IP occasionally shared by a music sharer, sales dropped massively, but when they abandoned their lawsuit campaign, sales went up.) However, looks like we can add DVD sales to the list of things piracy boosts.

http://www.rieti.go.jp/en/publications/ ... 10021.html

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:42 pm 
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We have two issues here. Illegal downloading and legal renting. Let's not confuse the two.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:14 pm 
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If they make me wait, I just won't see it at all. Most movies suck balls anyway. I'm not missing much.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:11 am 
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Talya wrote:
Most of them are too old to find, now, having been buried by hundreds of fake industry studies. (Music sales rose rapidly during the Napster era, only to take a massive dive when Napster was shut down. Similarly, during the few years that the RIAA was suing every grandmother who happened to get a dynamic IP occasionally shared by a music sharer, sales dropped massively, but when they abandoned their lawsuit campaign, sales went up.) However, looks like we can add DVD sales to the list of things piracy boosts.

http://www.rieti.go.jp/en/publications/ ... 10021.html


I do not read Japanese. Interesting assertion that papers that support your theory are scientifically sound (but have disappeared) but papers that run counter to your argument were created by industry schills and are plentiful.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:36 am 
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Now you're just being difficult.

http://www.azoz.com/music/features/0008.html
http://www.gartner.com/id=308304
http://www.slideshare.net/dpeacockstudi ... le-sharing

All the RIAA's hard statistics on lost sales involved estimates on how many files were shared, and the money they might have made had people paid for all those songs.

Anyway, your mind is set against the facts.

Piracy is a virtue. Arrr.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:14 am 
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Talya wrote:
http://www.azoz.com/music/features/0008.html

Are you even reading your sources or just skimming them?
Quote:
But wait. Something is missing from the 2001 statistics, at least the ones I could find. Singles. For some reason they stopped reporting this information. The reason is obvious. The single is dead. This is what the record companies are screaming "pirate" about. This is the product that the Internet has killed. And yet, this comes nowhere near the fictitious $4 billion in "lost sales" mentioned above.

Your own source freely admits that piracy killed an entire line of business for the industry.

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http://www.gartner.com/id=308304

Since the price for this document is $795 I am assuming you paid for it, can you provide a nutshell overview of it and some of their statistics?

Quote:
http://www.slideshare.net/dpeacockstudios/music-sales-in-the-age-of-file-sharing


And this MBA paper states the same thing as above, that piracy directly destroyed the singles market.


[quote='Talya']All the RIAA's hard statistics on lost sales involved estimates on how many files were shared, and the money they might have made had people paid for all those songs.

Anyway, your mind is set against the facts.

Piracy is a virtue. Arrr.[/quote]

Interesting stance that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:21 am 
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That's a really funny assertion, since both of those papers are demonstrably wrong. In 2011, iTunes grossed $1.1 billion in singles sales along ... at $0.99 a song. More than 4 billion singles were legally downloaded on iTunes. This isn't counting other digital music distribution services at all: iTunes sales of singles were just under 2% of the entire music industry in 2011. That $1.1 billion also doesn't include full record sales: only sales of singles released for radio play.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:23 am 
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Khross wrote:
That's a really funny assertion, since both of those papers are demonstrably wrong. In 2011, iTunes grossed $1.1 billion in singles sales along ... at $0.99 a song. More than 4 billion singles were legally downloaded on iTunes. This isn't counting under digital music distribution services at all: iTunes sales of singles were just under 2% of the entire music industry in 2011. That $1.1 billion also doesn't include full record sales: only sales of singles released for radio play.

*shrug* They aren't my 8 year old sources. Talk to Talya about why she couldn't produce anything current.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:34 am 
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You want me to dig up current information on Napster's impact on sales? Really? Of course it's going to be 8 years old! I specifically mentioned Napster studies, and that they were old. When I finally dig up a few, you're going to complain that they're old?

One small product line does not mean a loss in overall profit. What piracy did do is force the industry to stop charging $20 for a CD with only two songs on it you wanted, or $9 for a single. Yeah. Even iTunes at 0.99 a song is probably overpriced, but i'm not going to cry for them. Especially when the artists make nearly nothing off of any of that -- which is why they have concerts where they take the majority of the profit themselves.

Even if file sharing completely killed music sales, instead of boosting it the way it does, it would help the artists. The record company can sell a 20 million copies of a CD, and give the artist a mere five grand. File sharing, however, suddenly turns the fringe artist who barely sells popular and drives up demand for their concerts or CDs. It has enabled even junior artists to start their own personal record label rather than be indentured servants of the RIAA, and actually make a living. File sharing promotes creativity and art creation, and is ultimately good for artists, consumers, pretty much everyone except for the leeches who used to have a stranglehold on the industry. That's why these human parasites are lobbying so hard to stop it - oh, piracy hurts them. It will destroy them. Because we don't need their kind in society.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:45 am 
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That's a lot of bald assertions that you have yet to provide any evidence to support. If you'd like we can leave it at that and you and I can go our separate ways on this topic or you can provide some evidence to support your arguments.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:28 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
That's a lot of bald assertions that you have yet to provide any evidence to support. If you'd like we can leave it at that and you and I can go our separate ways on this topic or you can provide some evidence to support your arguments.


Burden of proof isn't on me, you're arguing the sky is green when anyone willing can look at it and see that it is blue. Nevertheless, as common sense isn't common, here you go.

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201104 ... urts.shtml
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86428/band ... ver-music/
http://mydailytech.com/post/does-file-s ... d-artists/
http://preliatorcausa.blogspot.com/2011 ... aring.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/de ... cent.urban
http://imwan.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=72290&f=30
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/show ... 27494.html
http://www.therecordrebellion.com/2011/ ... e-sharing/

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:57 pm 
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You are the one presenting the argument counter to the legislation and that the people who profit from sales don't know how to count so the burden is on you.
Quote:
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf

Stop giving me senior thesis. They are not credible.

Quote:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201104 ... urts.shtml

Now I know you aren't reading your own sources...
Quote:
Moving on to DRM, the survey found that 30% of the artists believe that DRM is hurting legitimate customers through access restrictions. Despite this negative view, 70% of all artists still believe their work should be protected by DRM. With regard to DRM there appears to be quite a large generation gap. More than 40% of the artists younger than 25 years old say DRM is hurting their relationship with the public, while none of the artists over 75 years old believes it does any harm.


Quote:
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86428/band ... ver-music/

You're definitely not reading them since the above site is gone and replaced with STOP SOPA.

At this point I am just going to stop. You are demonstratively wrong by your own sources and now you are just typing crap into google and copy/pasting the URLs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
You are the one presenting the argument counter to the legislation and that the people who profit from sales don't know how to count so the burden is on you.
Quote:
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf

Stop giving me senior thesis. They are not credible.

Actually, Felix Oberholzer and Kolemen Strumpf were professors, not students, at the time. Note they actually are from different schools. However, academic peer-reviewed documents are about as credible a source as they get.

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Now I know you aren't reading your own sources...
Quote:
Moving on to DRM, the survey found that 30% of the artists believe that DRM is hurting legitimate customers through access restrictions. Despite this negative view, 70% of all artists still believe their work should be protected by DRM. With regard to DRM there appears to be quite a large generation gap. More than 40% of the artists younger than 25 years old say DRM is hurting their relationship with the public, while none of the artists over 75 years old believes it does any harm.


That's referring to DRM, something else entirely from this discussion.

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You're definitely not reading them since the above site is gone and replaced with STOP SOPA.


Well, duh. half the internet has gone dark.

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At this point I am just going to stop.


This is the first reasonable thing you've said this entire conversation. You're arguing that the earth is flat.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Talya wrote:
This is the first reasonable thing you've said this entire conversation. You're arguing that the earth is flat.

If you fail at a logical argument, attack the messenger. Check.

How can you even pretend to be as ignorant as you're acting?

If I put a song on iTunes I get $0.10 per sale. If 100,000 people want it I get $10,000. If you pay the $0.10 and then give it to the other 99,999 people I get... $0.10.

Go on pretending you are not stealing. Pretend markets don't exist for this product, markets you are bypassing to distribute my content.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:29 pm 
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What is Taly stealing? While I'm actually a big proponent of intellectual property rights, I want to know what Taly is stealing. She's not denying you money; she's not denying you market access; she's not even undercutting real demand for your product. So, what is Taly stealing? What theft occurs in this situation?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Khross wrote:
What is Taly stealing? While I'm actually a big proponent of intellectual property rights, I want to know what Taly is stealing. She's not denying you money; she's not denying you market access; she's not even undercutting real demand for your product. So, what is Taly stealing? What theft occurs in this situation?


That's the hardest part to define of this entire argument. Does one movie/CD pirated = one sale lost? Absolutely not. (Even though this is what every MPAA/RIAA "total of sales lost through piracy" calculation uses). Are there people who pirated it that would've bought it if it was unavailable through piracy channels? Probably. Are there people that pirated it to listen/watch/play it, and then liked it and bought it? Probably. So are sales lost through piracy? If you look at it one way, yes. Are sales GAINED through the potential increased access to a larger audience and word of mouth? Also likely. It's almost impossible to determine, because there is very little solid data that can be presented that's not being manipulated by someone to prove their point.

The argument is also different for different levels of popularity. I believe 100% that there are indie artists who were having no success in the recording industry that made their records free for download through all available channels and increased sales. I don't believe this applies as much for major artists. People aren't pirating huge bands because they don't know who they are or who they sound like, they don't need to pirate the new Moby album to find out if they like Moby. So it might be cutting into legitimate sales on that side. You can't paint it all with the same brush (even though that's what the lobbyists want to do).

The moral argument is that someone somewhere worked hard and created something, and someone else took it without paying for it. Taly might not walk into a store and pick up a stack of blu-rays and walk out with them without paying, but she has the content from those discs on her drive without paying the content creators. Regardless of how you feel about copyright laws, the creator did not get money from that sale.

The other side of the moral argument is the "evil corporation" viewpoint, that the content creators, the musicians/editors/mastering technicians/producers/directors/writers have already been paid by the huge evil company by the time the product hits the market, therefore they've made their money for the content and the only people not getting paid are the huge content producing record companies or film studios or game publishers.

So what's the resolution to wall of text? That there's probably no good easy way to resolve any of this. Piracy is going to exist forever. If you remove every single digital method of duplication, there will still be people sitting next to their speaker with a tape recorder replicating your content. The scramble is because it is incredibly easy now, opening it up to people who might have never investigated it before. People need almost no technical knowledge to download and burn a DVD or CD these days, and that terrifies the people who exist to control how you can use your content.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Remember the NIN album that was made available for free on the NIN website?

You know, the one: it was posted about on an iteration of the Glade: I do not know if this one or the last...

I am big on the theory that both sides have valid points. I feel people should do as their conscience guides them and be prepared for any consequences that brings...

That said, I think there should be a day or even a week where a boycott is held and movies, music, games, etc. are not purchased or viewed.

Skip out on buying movies or music, skip out on going to the movies, completely. Hold the RIAA and MPAA up to the fire by completely avoiding their products altogether.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Khross wrote:
What is Taly stealing? While I'm actually a big proponent of intellectual property rights, I want to know what Taly is stealing. She's not denying you money; she's not denying you market access; she's not even undercutting real demand for your product. So, what is Taly stealing? What theft occurs in this situation?

She's stealing away the choice the content creator made when they decided how to allow their work to be viewed by their audience.

Virtual rape, in a way.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Virtual rape, in a way.
How? Seriously ... let's be academic about this, because no one's going to arrive at anything remotely concrete or acceptable without a) coming to terms and b) actual rational exploration of the topic. As it stands, we have those who wish to criminalize sharing sound or sight or a sensory perception. So ... perhaps we need to figure out what actually constitutes intellectual property in the first place. What is, for lack of a better term, a thought commodity?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:22 pm 
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It's murky, but I also think these industries are dinosaurs on the verge of extinction. Well, their business models are anyway. They would do better embracing the new technology fully, instead of trying to legislate it away. I also think it would take more control away from the studios as content creators as artists themselves are made more able to distribute their own content instead of having to rely on the various industries as being the Gate Keeper.

It's understandable why they don't like that idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Virtual rape, in a way.
How? Seriously ... let's be academic about this, because no one's going to arrive at anything remotely concrete or acceptable without a) coming to terms and b) actual rational exploration of the topic. As it stands, we have those who wish to criminalize sharing sound or sight or a sensory perception. So ... perhaps we need to figure out what actually constitutes intellectual property in the first place. What is, for lack of a better term, a thought commodity?

The product is entertainment, the distribution method is decided on by the content creator.

Piracy takes away the decision on how a content creator want to distribute the product, same way someone who wants to decide how to share their affection is affected when someone rapes them. They may want to get to know the other better, they mighty even want to work out an equatable trade, but that's irrelevant, they have what's in demand and taking it without consideration ... without negotiating an exchange ... is theft.

The reason I used rape is 'cause its the only thing i could think of where there's the taking of something without the victim being denied the ability to exchange that product again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:04 pm 
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THe product is not entertainment. It is sensory perception, it is information, it is thought itself. It's nothing more, and nothing less.

As for it being theft; even wher it is illegal, the law disagrees. It is not theft. By dictionary definition, it is not theft.

As the USSC put it so bluntly in 1985 in Dowling vs. The United States:

Quote:
The phonorecords in question were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud" for purposes of [section] 2314. The section's language clearly contemplates a physical identity between the items unlawfully obtained and those eventually transported, and hence some prior physical taking of the subject goods. Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use. Infringement implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.

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