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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:08 pm 
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Again, you're talking about something fundamentally ontological, Taskiss ...

You're talking about something "created" or "constructed" or "made" but without physical, material form. It exists as a series of sounds layered together in such a way as to yield some sort of transmittable meaning, but what medium is used for that exchange? So, tell me what is being stolen. There's no choice to be denied: once that particular combinations of sounds was heard by any other entity capable of hearing, the creator had already distributed it to the world. By giving that particular combination of a sounds a transmittable form ...

Well, the creature made it distributable and shared a thought with everyone else capable of thinking. So, again, what is being stolen? The thought was already shared and heard.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Again, you're talking about something fundamentally ontological, Taskiss ...

You're talking about something "created" or "constructed" or "made" but without physical, material form. It exists as a series of sounds layered together in such a way as to yield some sort of transmittable meaning, but what medium is used for that exchange? So, tell me what is being stolen. There's no choice to be denied: once that particular combinations of sounds was heard by any other entity capable of hearing, the creator had already distributed it to the world. By giving that particular combination of a sounds a transmittable form ...

Well, the creature made it distributable and shared a thought with everyone else capable of thinking. So, again, what is being stolen? The thought was already shared and heard.

No, it's been distributed to just that audience that experienced it, and even more, if that audience were to witness that same combination of sounds all over again, it's a brand new experience each time. It's a thing of that moment... It's entertainment. The feelings it evokes aren't distributed to the world, just those folks who witness it.

The product is the experience...the entertainment. If the creator of that particular product expects to be compensated for the experience and that compensation isn't exchanged, then it's theft.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Expectation? It seems to me the only argument you have is a sense of entitlement.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Whoops, double post.

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Last edited by Kaffis Mark V on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Talya wrote:
THe product is not entertainment. It is sensory perception, it is information, it is thought itself. It's nothing more, and nothing less.

As for it being theft; even wher it is illegal, the law disagrees. It is not theft. By dictionary definition, it is not theft.

As the USSC put it so bluntly in 1985 in Dowling vs. The United States:

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The phonorecords in question were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud" for purposes of [section] 2314. The section's language clearly contemplates a physical identity between the items unlawfully obtained and those eventually transported, and hence some prior physical taking of the subject goods. Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use. Infringement implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.

And nobody's disputing that, Talya.

However, the USSC quote you just provided does not rationalize infringement as a moral act.

It also does not unilaterally define it as a productive or profitable act for the copyright holder.

So you've successfully argued that A is not C. A is still wrong, and bad for the people who create and manage the dissemination of information as their livelihood.

Alternative distribution models, even ones that look very similar to A, may well be very profitable, especially in some circumstances. However, that does not change the fact that you are wrong to force A, which is not C (which is also wrong, and it might be argued equally wrong), on the creator/owner of that information, nor does it rationalize your act of doing so.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Expectation? It seems to me the only argument you have is a sense of entitlement.

I expect to be compensated according to the results of my negotiations, so... I guess I agree with you, I have a sense of entitlement. I think the defining quality would be if I deserved to have that sense of entitlement.

That's a matter for the courts to decide, I'd say, and I believe they have.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:08 pm 
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So you have nothing but an assertion, because the courts have decided it's not theft. It's an abrogation of a Fair Use and Copyright statute, but not theft. There's a distinct difference. Theft is mala in se while Copyright violations are mala prohibita.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:32 pm 
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So wait, if we pirate Indiana jones and the crystal skull are we raping George Lucas and Steven Spielberg BACK? This could create some kind of rape infinity loop. *head explode


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Darkroland wrote:
So wait, if we pirate Indiana jones and the crystal skull are we raping George Lucas and Steven Spielberg BACK? This could create some kind of rape infinity loop. *head explode

Only if you paid to have the movie and then pirated it.

At that point, I would say you deserved it, but that's just me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Khross wrote:
So you have nothing but an assertion, because the courts have decided it's not theft. It's an abrogation of a Fair Use and Copyright statute, but not theft. There's a distinct difference. Theft is mala in se while Copyright violations are mala prohibita.

Sure.

However, I disagree with your implication that Copyright violations are bad *solely* because they're illegal. I believe that the laws we created to establish Copyright serve a purpose that is still valuable and necessary to our creative and innovative society.

If that's where the discussion goes, I'll elaborate on my thought process, but so long as it's just Talya incessantly proclaiming "Nyah nyah! I'm not stealing anything, so it's okay!" with her fingers in her ears, I don't really feel like talking over that white noise.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Khross wrote:
So you have nothing but an assertion, because the courts have decided it's not theft. It's an abrogation of a Fair Use and Copyright statute, but not theft. There's a distinct difference. Theft is mala in se while Copyright violations are mala prohibita.

METRO-GOLDWYN-MAYER STUDIOS INC., et al.,
PETITIONERS v. GROKSTER, LTD., et al.
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And deliberate unlawful copying is no less an unlawful taking of property than garden-variety theft.


The court didn't have a problem equating pirating to theft... It's described as an "unlawful taking of property", which pretty much spells it out.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... vol=04-480

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:51 am 
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Khross wrote:
What is Taly stealing? While I'm actually a big proponent of intellectual property rights, I want to know what Taly is stealing. She's not denying you money; she's not denying you market access; she's not even undercutting real demand for your product. So, what is Taly stealing? What theft occurs in this situation?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:09 pm 
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JoCo weighs in on the whole piracy issue.
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2012/01/21/megaupload/


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Darkroland wrote:
JoCo weighs in on the whole piracy issue.
http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2012/01/21/megaupload/


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