The Glade 4.0

I figured we are bound to have people familiar with the law here and wanted to get a bit of advice on a matter.

So anyways if anyone had read my rant post you're probably aware that my roommate decided he was moving out at the end of the month and gave the landlord his notice on the 31st of Jan, we have a tenant at will agreement with a 30 day notice, however we are both on the lease and from what my landlord said and from what i've read looking at the MA state laws is that that notice actually requires both of our signatures to actually end the lease contract, so as of right now the lease for both of us is still in effect at least thru the end of march and my roommate said he's not paying for next month cause he's moving.

Legally I could go after him in small claims court to get the amount of that month back since I have documented proof of the amount he payed me for each month, but that of course would be a huge hassle, however when we moved in and gave the check for the first months rent and security deposit the check containing the full amount was my check from my back account, he transferred his half into my account and I wrote the check.

Now my question is that since the full deposit check came from me it would have to be returned to me if/when I leave I believe, would I be in the legal right to withhold the the amount for that last month because he didn't pay me? Or alternatively should I try talking to the landlord and seeing if I can arranging for her to take his un-payed portion out of the security deposit and I write her a check for the same amount to put back into the deposit so that it's fully documented that he didn't pay, she withheld his part of the deposit but she still has the safety of knowing she still has the full deposit amount in case there were apartment damages?

Small claims court is a lot easier than you think it is.

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I don't know, but if you withhold the deposit for back rent the onus to sue would be on him. If he was willing to go though you could argue your reasons for withholding it based on your documentation.

Also if you sue and win in small claims, it's going to take time to get your money even if the court takes it out of his paycheck.

So I'd explain the situation to your landlord and ask what they'd want to do.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Aside from probably wanting to consult a lawyer, what you need to look for in the contract as well is a clause stating that, essentially, both of you are responsible for the entire amount of the rent. There's a good chance that's in there; if it is you're responsible for the entire amount of the rent if he doesn't pay (and vice versa). I'm not sure exactly how it would be worded, but the words "jointly and severally" are likely to be involved.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yeah, I know it basically states that the full amount needs to be payed and from her end it doesn't matter where it comes from, and if he didn't pay I would have to go after him, but the security deposit check being in my name thing I just realized and hoping that would be a way around court because it will take forever to get the money back that way.

If it were me, I'd look at the contract and see how the security deposit is worded. If your roommate wants to argue that the security deposit needs to be returned; than that implies that the contract is ended in full -- in which case, you haven't provided your 30 days acknowledgement of that yet, so it can only end in March. If the contract isn't ending (and thus, he's provided HIS 30 days notice), then the security deposit doesn't get returned.

That's the logic I'd try to pursue and support, were it me.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

While not very nice.

Sass, she who holds the money, holds the power.

Do what you have to, to protect your own interests and make him sue if necessary.

Yeah, regardless he couldn't get it back till the end of March for that reason, the landlord understandably wouldn't give that till all tenants moved out and the apartment can be looked over for damage, it was more about the legality of withholding that from him for not paying rent.



Yeah, and while I'm normally the one to be nice always I don't intend to be nice about this because he is trying to screw me over.

I haven't read the rant post, but based on the facts presented here, I have to say that I think your roommate is actually in the right. Think about it like this - what if you never decided to give your own notice? Do you think your roommate should be on the hook for half the rent on the apartment for the next 6 months, the next year, the next 10 years? If both of you have to give notice for the contract to end with respect to either of you, that's essentially what you're suggesting.

Now, it's true that as between you and the landlord, the contract continues to exist, and you are responsible to the landlord for the full amount of the rent, but as between your ex-roommate and you or your ex-roommate and the landlord, I suspect the contract has been effectively terminated.*

*Note: I am not admitted to practice in MA, and I have no knowledge of landlord/tenant law generally beyond what any layman would have, so don't rely on that as legal advice. Definitely consult a MA lawyer before making any decisions about how to proceed.

I think her position is that the roommate didn't give 30 days notice to her, RD. Meaning she didn't have enough warning to give notice to the landlord if she couldn't manage the rent on her own.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Ah, I see. I was under the impression that she received the same notice as the landlord on Jan 31st. I don't know what, if anything, their agreement says about notice between the roommates, though, or what MA law would say about such notice requirements if the agreement is silent. Again, I'd recommend Sass consult a lawyer if possible.

If that's too expensive, I'd at least suggest she initiate the formal mediation or small claims court processes available for this kind of dispute to make sure it all gets settled properly. A self-help approach (like just refusing to return the security deposit) sounds like a recipe for unwanted personal drama to me, whereas a formal mediation or court order gets things done in a way that the parties may be more likely to accept as final and/or legitimate.

I thought the roommate told Sas on 1/31? In any event: Nolo.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

He did tell me on the same day, regardless though there is a single lease contract with both of our signatures and thus requires both of us to cancel the lease, like a marriage contract for example, a single party in a multiple party contract can't end the contract on their own, otherwise he could have for example given the landlord the notice to cancel the contract and not told me and on the end of the month finding out I can't live there anymore because the contract is terminated without my approval. So even though he's moving out on the 29th he is still on the contract at least thru the end of March, if I for example got hit by a bus next week and was killed he would be responsible for that month as he's still on the contract.

Also from what i'm reading it requires a min of a 30 day notice, or gets rolled over to the end of the next rental period, there is only 29 days in Feb so it it was only submitted with a 29 day notice.

This thread is a shining example of why I am glad I don't practice law for a living.

Best of luck, Sassy.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

I know right? they can't seem to make anything clear when it comes to the law, but it looks like regardless I do have a real legal ground on that 30 day notice, which is actually one rental period or 30 days, whichever is greater, which moving out in the end of Feb would be where the 30 day comes into play, to move out in the end of Feb it requires the 30 day notice since that's longer, which on a normal year would require it to be submitted to the landlord on the 29th of Jan, since this is a leap year it would be the 30th. I need to verify with the landlord, but when my roommate was messaging me on the 31st he said he had his written notice in his hand and was delivering it that night, meaning that notice was too late even if he could break the lease on his own.

Well I found out now I really have a legal ground to get his part of the rent for next month, I called my landlord today to get a copy of the lease agreement (my roommate took it to his boyfriends house) and to verify he gave her his notice on the 31st of Jan, well he never gave her any written notice at all, so he's just vacating the apartment without any written notice.

So if I understand correctly, Sas, you're saying he informed both you and the landlord on or about Jan 31st that he would be leaving at the end of February, but because you didn't realize that meant you'd be on the hook for the whole rent starting in March, you now feel justified in forcing him to pony up half of it by relying on the fact that he didn't put his notice to the landlord in writing? No offense, but in the interest of giving you honest feedback, I'll say that just seems like a crappy thing for you to do. You had plenty of warning as to this guy's departure plans, so in my (moral, not legal) view, that makes March your problem, not his.

Out of curiosity, what do you think should happen in April if you decide to stay? Should he be on the hook for half of that month as well, since "there is a single lease contract with both of our signatures and thus requires both of us to cancel the lease"? What if you stay for another year? How exactly does this guy get out of the obligation to pay half the rent if you never decide to sign off on a cancellation?

No, actually he didn't give me enough notice, not only did he ultimately provide no legal notice but he didn't give me enough notice to submit a notice myself to move out at the end of Feb too I I had wanted to, the 31st when he told me he was moving was 29 days before he was planning on moving out, a 30 day notice is required to move out, he didn't give that to me or the landlord.

So since it was less than 30 days I couldn't have even given the landlord my notice to leave at the end of Feb and thus i'm forced to stay there to the end of March at that point, so yes, he should be required to pay his half of March because he didn't in fact give proper notice.

Just out of curiosity, are you planning to stay after march?

At this point no, after this I don't want to have to deal with a roommate again so i'm going to move at the end of March and find a studio/1 bedroom I can afford myself.

Especially cause it's not just this issue with him, about 5 months ago he decided he wasn't going to pay half of the cable bill cause he only used internet and "doesn't watch tv", though he has a TV and a cable box in his room, he hasn't payed me the full amount for the utilities for November, hasn't payed any utilities for December, he hasn't payed me February's rent still, he takes my stuff without asking over to his boyfriend's house and doesn't bring them back for weeks or sometimes months, some of my kitchen stuff has been missing since November and some of my DVD's are also missing.

That's a retroactive justification, though, Sas. Unless I misunderstood, your original argument for why he should pay was based on the idea that it takes both tenants to effectively cancel, not on the idea that his notice was inadequate. Basically, it sounds like you knew he was leaving and had no intention of doing so yourself, but when you later discovered that meant you would be on the hook for the whole rent, you started looking for reasons why he should still be required to cover half of it. The first theory you identified (that he can never get out of the lease unless you do too) seems weak, so you're now attacking the sufficiency of his notice instead.

In short, it seems like you made a mistake in your understanding of what your rent obligations would be after he left, so now you're just trying to look back and find some mistake he might have made so you can get him to cover some of the cost. *shrug* Might be legally correct, but like I said, just seems kinda crappy to me.

Regardless of legality he didn't give me enough notice to decide if I wanted to stay or leave, and he was trying to just leave without that which is kinda crappy too, and illegal. They have laws for this stuff for a reason, my original reason is still valid for why he has to pay, I've been looking more to make sure I have all the information I need to win the case in small claims court and found out even more, the fact is i'm in the right here and he was in the wrong, if he had given me any sort of notice ahead of time, even a week so I could have decided what to do then that would be a different story.

So even when I thought that the 31st was still in time for me to give my notice too (which it wasn't) a 10 hour notice isn't near enough time to give someone to figure out something major like moving or the feasibility of finding a new roommate, and that's all I got.

Fair enough; just giving you my two cents. It's ultimately your money at stake and your moral compass that governs here, and there's obviously a whole history of details about the overall roommate relationship that I wasn't privy to which may alter the karmic balance (so to speak) of this particular dispute. In any event, I'll shut up about it now and just wish you luck with your case.

Thanks, and yeah, really i'm a very moral person and wouldn't do anything I thought I was morally in the wrong in doing so.

And karmic balance, well if it's possible to have a possitive karma surplus I do because i'm overly nice and help people to the point I get taken advantage of often. Even with him, about a year ago he got into a car accident and was without his car for about 1 1/2 -2 months, I drove him to work almost everyday without even asking for gas money, and at about 10 miles all city driving with the gas prices how they are and my car being a V8 that's a significant amount of money, and again about a week before we moved to this apartment he got into another car accident, I loaned him $250 and gave him a few months to pay the utilities so he could afford to get his car fixed asap. So at this point i'm really tired of getting taken advantage of, especially with how much I helped him in the past.

Now that you say all that, I guess it's not very surprising that he continued to take advantage of you. He saw your kindness as a weakness and you let him exploit it. Glad you're finally trying to do something about it.