The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2024 6:49 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Dubai is almost bankrupt
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/business/28markets.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

Quote:
The debt crisis facing the Dubai investment fund rattled investors for a second day on Friday, rekindling doubts about the vitality of emerging economies. Investors, however, said they had anticipated the deterioration of the country’s real estate bubble, and they considered Dubai’s troubles an isolated case.

In New York and throughout Asia, stocks endured sharp losses on Friday, responding to reports that Dubai World, the emirate’s investment vehicle, was seeking to delay for six months payments on all or part of its $59 billion in debt. European markets, which fell 3.2 percent on Thursday, calmed on Friday and closed higher.

The Dow Jones industrial average tumbled 154.48 points, or 1.48 percent, to 10,309.92 on Friday, recovering from a 225-point loss early on. The Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index fell 19.14 points, or 1.72 percent, to 1,091.49. The Nasdaq slipped 37.61 points, or 1.7 percent, to 2,138.44.

The quick evaporation of Dubai’s economic standing revived concerns among traders about the vulnerabilities of markets in places like Indonesia, Brazil and China.

“The fact is the equity markets globally have gotten way ahead of themselves,” said Dan Alpert, managing partner of Westwood Capital. “The stock markets and the bond markets are in violent disagreement, and at some point, it is going to be resolved by a sell-off in the equity markets.”

Led by emerging countries, stock markets have climbed at an incredible pace as the global economy has started to recover. Markets in emerging economies have gained 87 percent in the last year, according to the MSCI Emerging Markets Index, with investors piling in money in search of higher returns.

Dubai’s request for more time to repay debt sent the cost of insuring government and corporate bonds to levels not seen since July. Japan, Italy and Germany have posted some of the largest gains in risk in recent days, according to an index compiled by CDR Credit Indices.

Credit swaps rose for a third consecutive day on Friday. It now costs Dubai $647,000 to insure $10 million in debt for five years, up from $541,000 the day before. Indonesia’s cost increased by $12,000 and China’s by $6,000.

United States Treasury prices rose, as did the dollar, as investors fled equities for the safety of government-backed debt. The 10-year Treasury note rose 18/32, to 101 14/32, and the yield fell to 3.21 percent, from 3.27 percent late Wednesday.

Markets in Asia were sharply lower on Friday, with the Hang Seng in Hong Kong falling 4.8 percent. European exchanges finished slightly higher.

Some analysts said Friday that the declines were overdone, exaggerated by light trading over a holiday. A truer picture of the markets may not come until next week, analysts said, as buyers return and as more details of the Dubai crisis, and the exposure of banks, emerge.

“Dubai is really a symptom, a legacy, from the previous boom, rather than symptomatic of a start of a whole new set of issues that are going to create a systemic crisis in emerging markets,” Kevin Grice, senior international economist at Capital Economics in London, said. “Markets assume the worst-case scenario.”

Investors on Friday tried to assess just how much damage Dubai’s debt struggle would wreak on the global economy, and a question was how much exposure banks might have. Emerging markets have often seemed more vulnerable because their financial markets are not as deep and sophisticated as those in the West.

While that notion was proved wrong during the financial crisis, investors are still skittish about the developing world’s ability to handle a crisis. They need look no further than Bangkok, where a seemingly contained financial panic spiraled into a regional crisis more than a decade ago.

There is a fear that Dubai’s problems could rattle emerging market banks and financial institutions that have lent the emirate money.

On Friday, corporate officials across Asia started offering assurances that they had limited or no exposure to Dubai World and its subsidiaries. The Bank of Baroda, an Indian bank, said Friday that 5 to 6 percent of its loans were to Dubai entities, adding that those borrowers were current on all of their loans.

In Europe, a research note from Credit Suisse estimated that European banks might be the hardest hit if Dubai World could not meet its obligations, with total exposure estimated at 13 billion euros ($19.5 billion). European banks, however, played down their exposure.

During the boom, Dubai World and other fast-growing companies from the emirate invested heavily in companies and projects across Asia, building ports in India and Pakistan and taking stakes in Chinese banks. There is a fear that those projects and firms could suffer if Dubai authorities are forced to sell some of their holdings or put off investments to raise cash to repay their large debts.

David Riedel, founder and president of the Riedel Research Group, said the crisis in Dubai would probably cause some aversion to risk in the short term. However, he said it did not diminish the high hopes for emerging markets.

“It will cause people to think about the strength of the financial markets rally, which in many cases has outpaced the fundamental recovery,” he said. “But it doesn’t change anything about the emerging markets story, which remains very much intact.”


This situation is really interesting, as the relationship between Dubai and Abu Dhabi is very similar to the situation between the US and China. Dubai has about $180 billion in debt to a GDP of $174 billion, similar to the GDP/debt ratio in the US. Abu Dhabi also owns most of Dubai's debt, so they can't afford to let them go bankrupt and keep bailing them out.

The sad thing is we could be seeing the 21st century Holocaust occur here. There are literally millions of migrant laborers in Dubai, a city in the middle of the desert with not even a lake or river. Water costs five times as much as oil here, and if they actually go bankrupt there won't be any for any of the laborers.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:34 pm 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:42 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Xequecal wrote:
[...] they can't afford to let them go bankrupt and keep bailing them out.


That makes no sense.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
Rafael wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
[...] they can't afford to let them go bankrupt and keep bailing them out.


That makes no sense.


If Dubai defaults on their debt all the debt that Abu Dhabi owns becomes worthless. So they keep buying up more of Dubai's debt to keep them going, exactly what China does for the US.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:01 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
You still haven't substantiated anything with that statement. All you've established is the negative of a proactive choice: in otherwords, all that statement says is if we don't perpetuate a state of debt, then the debt obligations we own become worthless.

They can't afford to "let" them go bankrupt, but that isn't something they can choose to do. The fundamentals indicate that bankruptcy is clearly inevitable. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be any concern about the securities in the first place. They aren't "bailing out" anyone nor are they preventing them from going bankrupt. They are making the impending insolvency grander and delaying it. That difference is critical.

Furthermore, it's China isn't just purchasing U.S. Debt. That is the action they are taking, not the ends they are seeking - they seek to maintain the floating currency peg of the yuan against the USD through purchases of Treasury securities.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:54 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Rafael wrote:
You still haven't substantiated anything with that statement. All you've established is the negative of a proactive choice: in otherwords, all that statement says is if we don't perpetuate a state of debt, then the debt obligations we own become worthless.


You might want to check again. I don't think that's really what he said.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:22 am 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
I believe it is. It's predicated on the error in thinking that "bankruptcy" (really a meaningless word whens something as large as a city is involved) can be prevented by supressing the symptoms and ultimately exacerbating the underlying problem fundamental problem.

The truth is, the debt owned by Abu Dhabi already is worthless. They spent the money consuming. Dubai World isn't going to bring in international tourism in such a way to pay back for the capital invested in it. One, because right now, the rest of the world mostly cannot afford to since the US is drying up capital reserves, and two, because people typically don't do that anyhow.

It's like arguing that taking another shot right now will keep me from getting a hangover, because I can keep my buzz going.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:57 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:54 am
Posts: 2369
Rafael wrote:
Dubai World isn't going to bring in international tourism in such a way to pay back for the capital invested in it. One, because right now, the rest of the world mostly cannot afford to since the US is drying up capital reserves, and two, because people typically don't do that anyhow.


And these conditions will continue in perpetuity?

_________________
“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:05 am
Posts: 1111
Location: Phoenix
What you are saying isn't entirely true. If the world economy recovers, and Abu Dhabi floats Dubai long enough for that to happen, and Dubai once again becomes a hotspot, then that debt is no longer worthless, as Dubai would have the money to start paying it back. That's a lot of ifs, but if Abu Dhabi doesn't bail them out, then their existing debt certainly is worthless.

So I think Abu Dhabi is thinking that they may be screwed anyway, but if they do this they at least have a chance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:08 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
The former hopefully not, the latter, most likely, Dash.

I don't think Dubai is going to be a hotspot. The emerging economies are hopefully smarter than us in that they aren't going to rest on their laurels once they achieve status as major creditor entities in the world; instead of taking vacation to spend money because of the progress they made, I assume they will take the Toyota approach and continue to be frugal, continue to keep tight controls (via the market) on access to capital and credit. Their spending my slowly and proportionally increase, but it's not going to be like a Fed-led charge into wreckless malinvestment and consumerism.

As for "being screwed anyway", that strategy ignores the fact you have throw yet more money at them to float them. If chasing after good money with bad didn't have any consequences like that, there wouldn't even be a discussion about it. The fact is, floating a currency peg just like trying to keep the Dubai World (which is actually owned by Emirates of Dubai) from defaulting and folding, has a cost - it is doubling down K-3 to get out of debt at the Casino.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:18 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
On another note, I do believe one pitfall they may fall into is spending a lot of money on social entitlement programs, just as we have. However, this doesn't help Dubai (or international "hotspots") such as it.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 67 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group