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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:56 am 
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Nobody ever sold a book by writing about something that "is not even a big freaking deal".


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 Post subject: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:57 am 
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I respectfully disagree Khross. I still think we have the framework in place for choice to take place, but that most people are still too comfortable to buck the horse.

I don't think we've reached the point we were at at our founding, where after careful thought and an entire lifetime of trying to fix the problems, an uprising was our only choice.

Farksy, probably so, but that doesn't mean we can't meet on the battlefield of ideas before then.

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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:58 am 
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Rorinthas:

I know we don't have that framework. Materialism won.

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 Post subject: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:50 am 
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I mean politically if not socially. Sorry that was unclear. People need to change not the government.

If people dont change, an armed revolution would result in something more like France or Post Czar Russia.

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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:29 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
I mean politically if not socially. Sorry that was unclear. People need to change not the government.

If people dont change, an armed revolution would result in something more like France or Post Czar Russia.


This. The people are happy. They whine, they complain, but overall they are happy as a clam. And what they complain about? Whether government should be doing X+5 or X+6. It's RARELY anything fundamental.

People don't want change. They have a big choice, and they've made it. All they want now is to be presented with insignificant choices.


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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:33 am 
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Well, seeing as how the "revolution" people like to speculate about would probably result in widespread destruction, massive technological regression, and all the associated fun disease, death, starvation, and other problems and that there are no guarantees that any change in whatever political entities appeared in the aftermath would be positive, that's far from surprising.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Id think it would go like Starship Troopers envisioned it.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Id think it would go like Starship Troopers envisioned it.


Starship Troopers would be TERRIBLE way to setup a country.


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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Khross wrote:
neo-Fabianism


I read this word and started looking it up out of pure curiosity.

I have nothing to contribute, I just wanted to say.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:20 pm 
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New Fabio? What?

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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Dalantia wrote:
Khross wrote:
neo-Fabianism


I read this word and started looking it up out of pure curiosity.

I have nothing to contribute, I just wanted to say.


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There's a new version? Aaaahhhh!


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Id think it would go like Starship Troopers envisioned it.


Starship Troopers would be TERRIBLE way to setup a country.


The starship troopers government model is possibly the best way to run a country ever envisioned.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:36 pm 
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A world of no.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:53 pm 
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So, who do you all think is behind all the other candidates being belittled or shamed out of the race? Gingrich, Paul and Santorum are still all technically in it. Gingrich has no shame, Paul refuses to be bullied and Santorum is still hoping for a miracle.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Id think it would go like Starship Troopers envisioned it.


Starship Troopers would be TERRIBLE way to setup a country.


The starship troopers government model is possibly the best way to run a country ever envisioned.



from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers#Politics
Politics

Starship Troopers seems to have meant as a political essay as well as a novel. Large portions of the book take place in classrooms, with Rico and other characters engaged in debates with their History and Moral Philosophy teacher, who is often thought to be speaking in Heinlein's voice.[citation needed] The overall theme of the book is that social responsibility requires being prepared to make individual sacrifice. Heinlein's Terran Federation is a limited democracy, with aspects of a meritocracy in regard to full citizenship, based on voluntarily assuming a responsibility for the common weal. Suffrage can only be earned by those willing to serve their society by at least two years of volunteer Federal Service – "the franchise is today limited to discharged veterans", (ch. XII), instead of, as Heinlein would later note, anyone "...who is 18 years old and has a body temperature near 37 °C"[16] The Federation is required to find a place for anyone who desires to serve, regardless of his skill or aptitude (this also includes service ranging from teaching to dangerous non-military work such as serving as experimental medical test subjects to military service -- such as Rico's Mobile Infantry).

There is an explicit contrast to the "democracies of the 20th century", which according to the novel, collapsed because "people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted... and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears."[17] Indeed, Colonel Dubois criticizes as unrealistic the famous U.S. Declaration of Independence line concerning "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". No one can stop anyone from pursuing happiness, but the Colonel claims life and liberty exist only if they are deliberately sought and, often, bought painfully by great effort and sacrfice.

Starship Troopers is also widely-regarded as a vehicle for Heinlein's anti-communist views. Characters attack Karl Marx (a "pompous fraud"), the labor theory of value ("All the work one cares to add will not turn a mud pie into an apple tart..."),[18] and Plato's The Republic ("ant-like communism" and "weird in the extreme").[19]

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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Therein lies the beauty of the Starship Troopers system. The veterans didn't ask anyone else's opinion. They took control.

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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:31 am 
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Obvious moral issues aside, there's also the problem of reconciling the state's military needs with the volunteer pool.

If there are too many volunteers, where do you put them? Do you just deny them outright? Or do you make it a competition where the only the best potential soldiers get to join? That turns it from a "willing to sacrifice for society to get to vote" system to a "voting rights are handed out based on killing ability" system. If you just assign them to desk jobs or charity work or whatever, that probably won't sit well with the people who are actually risking their lives, not to mention causing an efficiency problem as so many able workers aren't doing anything productive.


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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:55 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Obvious moral issues aside, there's also the problem of reconciling the state's military needs with the volunteer pool.

If there are too many volunteers, where do you put them? Do you just deny them outright? Or do you make it a competition where the only the best potential soldiers get to join? That turns it from a "willing to sacrifice for society to get to vote" system to a "voting rights are handed out based on killing ability" system. If you just assign them to desk jobs or charity work or whatever, that probably won't sit well with the people who are actually risking their lives, not to mention causing an efficiency problem as so many able workers aren't doing anything productive.


You clearly have not read the book. The Federation gives the franchise for 2 years of Federal Service, not 2 years of military service, that service to meet the capabilities of the person doing it, and is often dangerous in ways other than combat. As to the efficiency problem, as long as the basic needs of the people in question are met, there's no need to pay them; what they're earning is the right to vote - and at a relative bargain price; 2 years' service is significantly less than a typical enlistment right now. That high turnover also helps solve the "too many volunteers problem", and provides a large inactive reserve that could be called back to active duty if/when needed.

As for it "not sitting well with the people risking their lives", that's contrary to the basic premise of the system. The point is not to make people be in the military; that isn't what the veterans in the book cared about and isn't what most real-life vets would want either, and they might not even be risking their lives all that much anyhow. In the book there's the bugs to deal with, but the viability of the political system isn't really related to the presence of ravenous alien invaders. The point is that people have to demonstrate the willingness to engage in a little responsibility towards society before they're allowed a say in how society will be run. Even that is an exaggeration; in Heinlein's description, everyone has freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and most of the other rights we enjoy (Rico's father refers directly to the fact that a "taxpayer has some rights", and that the schools ought not to be recruiting stations, and clearly has no fear anyone is going to come haul him away for expressing his opinion), they only thing that non-citizens can't do is actually exercise political power directly by voting or running for office.

In regards to "handing out voting based on killing ability" that's just silly. In Starship Troopers the logistical train of the military has been handwaved away by Heinlein's technological advances for the most part, but even there, attempting to quantify "killing ability" is pretty silly. Like real life, the soldiers come from all over the place and as long as they're able to psychologically handle combat, there's no measurable difference in "killing ability" between them anyhow.

The only place where personal ability to kill is really important is in special forces and infantry-type units where face-to-face killing at fairly close ranges (rifle range or less) is likely to occur. Even there, the ability of the soldier to work as part of a team, both following orders and exercising initiative, judgement, and passing information back up the chain of command are far more important than "killing ability". Why do I care about the "killing ability" of a truck driver, water-purification specialist, communications specialist, medic, chaplain's assistant, radar operator, or heck, even a tank crewman? They only need to have enough to defend themselves; even in the case of the tank crewman, his tank is what has the killing ability. He only needs to be able to drive it, load the gun, or engage targets with it. A test for "killing ability" is silly; it could never be quantified well enough to be measured and even if it could it would not be a good way to select the best soldiers.

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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:33 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Therein lies the beauty of the Starship Troopers system. The veterans didn't ask anyone else's opinion. They took control.


That's called a military coup. Starship Troopers form of government is a rather relaxed form of junta.


I am in favor of some kind of Meritocracy. However, willingness to volunteer for military service has nothing to do with the qualities I'd like to see in those who would run a government. (or even vote.)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:59 am 
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It's popular among military nuts who can't fathom a contribution to society outside of military service.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:01 am 
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At a glance, a meritocracy sounds grand. However, the reality is that those in power determine how "merit" is defined.

A high percentage of those in control will be veterans - this is not necessarily a problem, but as history teaches us, military in control tends to be problematic.

Teaching gets you citizenship - which merely puts education under the control of the Federal government in the extreme.

It codifies a second class of citizens. Granted, any of these can change their status at any time, which is better, but... still.

There's problems. It's not necessarily the devil, but it's not good. It's ripe for unrest, and over-control.

No system is perfect, but this model would go downhill fast.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:04 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
It's popular among military nuts who can't fathom a contribution to society outside of military service.


Wow. What's the matter, man, did someone express an opinion you didn't like? Jesus Christ....


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 Post subject: Re: Santorum is out
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:46 am 
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A "second class of citiziens" is encoded in identity.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:40 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
At a glance, a meritocracy sounds grand. However, the reality is that those in power determine how "merit" is defined.


I'm actually in favor of a few "skill testing questions" on the ballot. Simple, obvious things that if you can't answer, your vote is entirely discounted.

Among them:
-A test for basic math/logical skills
-A test for basic literacy
-A test for some basic knowledge about the political system of the country you are voting in

Everyone has the opportunity to go vote, but if they fail the questions, their vote doesn't count. Yes, this disenfranchises some people -- because people without those basics have absolutely no business deciding the political outcome of an election. Their votes are actually worse than a random dice roll.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:45 am 
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Talya wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
At a glance, a meritocracy sounds grand. However, the reality is that those in power determine how "merit" is defined.


I'm actually in favor of a few "skill testing questions" on the ballot. Simple, obvious things that if you can't answer, your vote is entirely discounted.

Among them:
-A test for basic math/logical skills
-A test for basic literacy
-A test for some basic knowledge about the political system of the country you are voting in

Everyone has the opportunity to go vote, but if they fail the questions, their vote doesn't count. Yes, this disenfranchises some people -- because people without those basics have absolutely no business deciding the political outcome of an election. Their votes are actually worse than a random dice roll.

One-time test to get a "Voter's License" or do you have to pass this assessment @ each election?

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