The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 9:50 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1169 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 47  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:30 am 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Khross wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion or spirituality. This has to do with science.


I am taking specific exception to Hopwin claiming math is imaginary, and you continually taking the argument even further and referencing it to all perception and reality. I called it a soliptical worldview because you constantly equate our perception and knowledge as being no better than mythology or dogma, as if somehow the human quest for real knowledge is futile; in your worldview there is no such thing as truth or reality. The argument is essentially the same one used in a solipsism, the believe that all perception is false and your own mind is the only consciousness that exists.

This is useless philosophical sophistry. It obfuscates and confuses debate and argument.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Last edited by Talya on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:33 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Talya wrote:
I am taking specific exception to Hopwin claiming math is imaginary, and you continually taking the argument even further and referencing it to all perception and reality.


Tell the circumference of a circle using only rational numbers.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:36 am 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
I am taking specific exception to Hopwin claiming math is imaginary, and you continually taking the argument even further and referencing it to all perception and reality.


Tell the circumference of a circle using only rational numbers.


Why intentionally limit the definition so that it's only an approximation?

Math is a language, used to describe reality. It's a universal language, in that it's not something we construct, it's evident throughout the universe and would be the same for any sentient species that delved into it. Our method of describing it, however, is often flawed, we cannot perfectly communicate in this language, but that doesn't make the language itself "imaginary" or somehow flawed.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:48 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/events/summer_ ... chool.html

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Old, but still appropriate.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:02 am 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Old, but still appropriate.

Image


Always liked that one.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:21 am 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
While you're all waxing spiritual about what is real and what is imaginary, I would like you all to consider that e is God. So really, if you're of the religious bent, that means math is the only reality in the universe.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
I am taking specific exception to Hopwin claiming math is imaginary, and you continually taking the argument even further and referencing it to all perception and reality.


Tell the circumference of a circle using only rational numbers.


twice the area divided by its radius.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:46 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Talya wrote:
I am taking specific exception to Hopwin claiming math is imaginary, and you continually taking the argument even further and referencing it to all perception and reality.


Tell the circumference of a circle using only rational numbers.


twice the area divided by its radius.

Which yields...

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:44 pm 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
I can give you the circumference of a circle with a radius of 1/pi in rational numbers easily enough.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
TheRiov wrote:
I can give you the circumference of a circle with a radius of 1/pi in rational numbers easily enough.

Yes, but I dare you to draw it.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:03 pm 
Offline
Web Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 8248
Location: The Tunt Mansion
Math isn't imaginary, but unfortunately we're forced to communicate through arbitrary symbols. Khross communicated it better than I could with this imaginary alphabet.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:25 pm 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
I can give you the circumference of a circle with a radius of 1/pi in rational numbers easily enough.

Yes, but I dare you to draw it.


I dare you to draw any circle.

When it comes down to it, ANY physical construct is an approximation/probability field due to the quantum mechanical nature of matter.

This is a silly argument. Quantum mechanics tells us that nothing is exact.

But don't confuse 'exact' with 'real' the terms are not synonymous. We use math to approximate the universe. But within the symbology of math, the answers are firm, direct, and exact. In the field of mathematics, the answers it generates are real. But as soon as you turn it into a representation of the universe, it has to be viewed as an approximation. That doesn't make the universe any less real. It just makes it less exact.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:34 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Speaking of circles...

Talya wrote:
There is no question as to what is real.

Since you categorically reject any attempt to question what is real then, yes; I suppose by definition there is no question as to what is real. You're exhibiting a philosophy which apparently prohibits being examined or questioned, let alone challenged. It is the only thing that ever was, is, or will be, and any thoughts to the contrary are not even worth considering.

Now then, you were saying something about solipsism?

Seriously, though, I think you're entirely missing Khross's (Khross's's's?) point. I don't think he's lamenting that modern thought - scientific, social, and economic - are based on materialism. The dialectic materialism so loved by Marx has more than a little to do with praxeology, in fact. Rather, his criticism is that they believe they are examples of materialism, presenting themselves with all the trappings thereof, but in reality are almost entirely immaterial. The biggest and most destructive symptom of which is that they pretend to know things which they cannot actually know, and which perhaps cannot ever be known.

Again, my understanding is likely poor, but the crux of praxeology is that human behavior in the sphere of economy is rational, but it cannot be known directly and is too individualistic to infer from broad, psychological theories -- even when those theories may be based on "real" aggregate statistics. In a nutshell, it is the practice of inferring only as much as can actually be inferred from empirical observation, and no more. This is the crucial flaw in Marxism, Keynesianism, and many other macroeconomic theories. They do not respect the limits of empiricism or of human knowledge in general. Most especially they fail to realize that large, highly complex systems are so non-deterministic as to be practically random. In light of this, any claim to an empirical macro-theory is almost laughable.

People are not atoms. They do not obey fixed, natural laws that are subject to the scalpel of empirical analysis. Nor are they commodities, nor interchangeable parts, inconsequentially different as to form, but identical as to function.

Khross wrote:
We've commodified people; we have institutionalized slavery at such a high level that people quibble on a digital heterotopia over the inevitability of government exertions of force.

Alas, poor Eli Whitney. He just can't shake the rap.


Hopwin wrote:
Khross wrote:
You allow an imaginary concept to approximate all perception.

I don't understand what you're saying, could you rephrase it in the form of a critique on the proper usage of 17th century grammar? :lol:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:39 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
There is no reason to think any amount of philosophizing over the nature of reality will bring Trayvon Martin back to life, nor allow George Zimmerman to go back in time and re-think his actions.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:42 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Let's not get side-tracked into specific examples.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:45 pm 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Diamondeye wrote:
There is no reason to think any amount of philosophizing over the nature of reality will bring Trayvon Martin back to life, nor allow George Zimmerman to go back in time and re-think his actions.

Go start your own thread you hijacker. This one finally got interesting again.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:02 pm 
Offline
Near Ground
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 6782
Location: Chattanooga, TN
FL judge disqualifies herself from the Zimmerman case


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:07 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Stathol wrote:
Let's not get side-tracked into specific examples.


You mean, like what the OP of this thread is?

None of this philosophizing about "what is knowledge?", praexeology, and so forth, solves one iota of any problem we're faced with. It has no power at all.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:08 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
I see Hopwin is having the same stumbling block about irrational numbers that the ancient Greeks had.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:33 pm 
Offline
Web Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 8248
Location: The Tunt Mansion
Diamondeye wrote:
None of this philosophizing about "what is knowledge?", praexeology, and so forth, solves one iota of any problem we're faced with. It has no power at all.


I'm not sure if I've ever seen such an ignorant post from you. Philosophy and concepts don't solve problems and have no power? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your point somehow.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:06 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Diamondeye wrote:
Stathol wrote:
Let's not get side-tracked into specific examples.


You mean, like what the OP of this thread is?

that-is-the-joke.jpg

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:31 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Eh, I'd say dialectic, materialism, and dialectic materialism are Empire in the personified abstract, Stathol. They are the hegemony we so desperately resist.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:09 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
Quote:
Talya: Pi, when expressed in any numerical system with an integer-base, has infinite decimal places that do not repeat.

Talya: so

Corolinth: That's the prevailing theory. We're still trying to check it out.

Talya: this means that the measurement of either circumference or diameter will also, if taken precisely, have infinite decimal places that do not repeat.

Corolinth: Yes.

Talya: Matter has a lower limit on distance calculations.

Corolinth: Yes. According to our current understanding.

Talya: does this not conflict with pi?

Corolinth: No.

Talya: see, at a certain point, the added decimal places become impossible when measuring distance.


Math is not concrete. It is abstract. I should clarify by pointing you to the Pythagorean Theorem. The hypotenuse of a right triangle is often a real thing that we wish to measure. When I say this, I mean real in a physical sense, and not a Khrosstonian sense, nor a mathematical sense. (The concept of "real" and "imaginary" in mathematics is somewhat misleading, because both have a real physical meaning. The interplay between the real and imaginary units dominates the very physical law that allows us to communicate over the Internet.) This physical thing exists, and could be measured, but either we do not have a long enough ruler, or it's in an inconvenient place to hold a ruler. What we can do is measure two orthogonal components and put them together in such a fashion that we arrive at a value equivalent to the one we hoped to find but could not measure directly.

I bring this up because it's important to understand the distinction between the physical world and the mathematical world.

Pi has more physical meaning than simply the ratio of circumference to diameter for a circle. That was simply the first method discovered, because it was most readily available to early mathematicians. For instance, we can get pi to pop out of measurements of a vibrating spring. Physically, there is no circle, just a spring bobbing up and down in a straight line. There is no circumference or diameter to measure - only forces required to stretch or compress a spring, the length of said deformation, and the time to complete a full vibration. Had we first discovered pi in this manner, we would have come up with Kaffis's favorite alternate circle constant: 2pi. Mathematically, this is because the cycle of a spring's vibration is modeled with a circle. This is where the abstraction comes in. Many different mathematical objects are valid models even when that geometric shape is not present in the physical world.

Now, what you were more directly interested in hearing was specifically related to the circle, since circle is the shape the layman always (correctly) associates with pi. As you've proposed, the current understanding of physical space is that it's quantized into discrete packets. If we had a circle small enough for that to matter, we would have a diameter of one Plank length. This is the lower constraint. A circle with a circumference of one Plank length couldn't exist, because the diameter would have to be smaller, and that can't happen. The circumference is pi Plank lengths. This isn't a problem, because the entire circle fits inside of a single Plank area (which, due to the way three dimensional space works, is spherical rather than rectangular).

It may seem problematic that the circumference is not a whole number of Plank lengths, but remember that the circumference is wrapped around inside a space that is one Plank length wide. If I were to cut the circle open and unroll it, then the pi Plank length would get stretched out into four Plank lengths. (Space being quantized means it comes in discrete packets, much like energy.) Does that mean the circumference is actually four, and not pi? No, it does not. Once you cut the circle open and unroll it, it's no longer a circle. It is a straight line. The relationship between circumference and diameter no longer applies. It's similar to how subatomic particles gain and lose mass when their atomic bonds change. That difference in length between four and pi that gets lost when the line rolls back up into a circle is like the mass that converts to bonding energy when two protons and a neutron form Helium-3.

But, we also have to get back to the idea that math is an abstraction, and is not the physical world itself. We did not come up with pi through direct measurement. Back then, it was really hard to measure bendy stuff. Instead, we used straight lines, and we analyzed patterns that emerged with polygons both inside and outside a circle as we increased the number of sides on the polygon. The beauty of mathematics is that it holds even when the physical world gets too large or too small to accurately observe, or holds a significant quantity of pieces that simple arithmetic and counting would be too cumbersome. To quote Richard Feynman, "Mathematics is a tricky way of doing something that would otherwise be laborious."

Because we begin early childhood education with counting objects, people get the false impression that math is counting, numbers, and arithmetic calculations. This perception gives rise to ignorant opinions like idea that math is imaginary because you can't count an irrational number, and you can't get to one with a fraction involving integers. Unfortunately, you can't count a rational number, either, because your chances of cutting an apple into halves, thirds, fourths, or any recognizable fraction is infinitesimally small. Your pieces will not be of equal size. Period. Ancient Greeks had this problem with √2, and there was a period of time where people were executed for heresy for holding the notion that such a number could exist. For a number of years, they had a huge problem with right isosceles triangles until they finally accepted that there had to be numbers which couldn't be counted. This all happened before the birth of Jesus. The Greeks knew the Earth was round, which is one of the reasons why they were so interested in circles to begin with. Unfortunately, Western society is still reeling from the collapse of the Roman Empire.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:31 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
None of this philosophizing about "what is knowledge?", praexeology, and so forth, solves one iota of any problem we're faced with. It has no power at all.


I'm not sure if I've ever seen such an ignorant post from you. Philosophy and concepts don't solve problems and have no power? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your point somehow.


No, you pretty much got the point, although it seems apparent you don't know what "ignorant" means.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1169 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 47  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 209 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group