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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
Montegue:

There is no science. We have admissions of peer-review fraud; data manipulation; data destruction; and an outright admission of no verifiable baseline data. Your consensus is a myth at best. The science didn't exist and won't exist.

Those are the facts now. The research your little pet issue was based upon doesn't exist and cannot be verified. In the world of real science, do you know what that means?
So does that mean that global warming is not occurring?
It means we definitely cannot answer that question, Arathain. And it means, most likely, it is a question we won't be able to answer in our lifetimes. The research has to start over. The baseline data and work has to be redone, with more transparency, more integrity, and more rigor. So, I couldn't answer your question before; I can't answer it now.


So that means it could be occurring! So you want to gamble with our children's futures while we collect more and more data and start all over? We have to start acting or it will be too late! I think we should start drastically reducing emissions now, and probably start shielding the ice shelves from the sun, while we collect this data. That way, we'll be sure to be ok if global warming turns out to be real.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:03 pm 
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I think its funny that that piece of ice he's standing on looks like a mushroom cloud.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:12 pm 
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Don't fret,

I'm sure someone will fabricate something that can be passed off as 'official'. There is too much money and political power at stake for these opportunities to be missed.


Last edited by Midgen on Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Of course, irony would be that you want the whistle blower prosecuted.
This isn't irony. I've been saying for quite some time that liberals aren't any different from the conservatives they complain about. Whistle-blowers should only be protected when the whistle-blowing makes the other team look bad.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
I think its funny that that piece of ice he's standing on looks like a mushroom cloud.

Nuke the polar bears! And the pandas! Little furry bastards are eating all of our penguins and bamboo shoots. ALL of them!

Edit: Yes, I know polar bears do not co-exist with penguins

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:42 pm 
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Fun Fact (can I do one?):

Almost every global climate change that has ever happened has had to do with geology, and not the amount of CO2 in the air. Plate tectonics (specifically sea-floor spreading and various rifting mechanics) and vulcanism are probably the two greatest contributors to the global climate.

For instance, did you know the last ice age was most likely created by the rise of Central America? The subduction zone there pushed the ocean floor up out of the water, creating the land. This cut off the ocean currents that would have gone back and forth from the Pacific to Atlantic, most likely causing the ice age.

Or how about the fact that Antarctica wasn't frozen over until South America and Australia separated from it, allowing the antarctic polar current to be created. This is basically a very cold ocean current that does laps around Antarctica. This prevents warm ocean currents that originate at the equator from reaching Antarctica and warming it. Interestingly, there's currently a subduction zone pushing the sea floor up between the southernmost point of South America, and the penninsula that extends from Antarctica. It's unknown how high the sea floor needs to be pushed up to interrupt the polar current, which would cause Antarctica to warm, and the ice to melt. It's possible that it's already happening.

Variations in the earths orbit, axis, and axial plane occur on the level of tens of thousands of years, and also have an effect on the earth's climate.

Warming and cooling happens on a regular basis, and actually has a fairly predictable pattern since the Atlantic Ocean was created after the break up of Pangea. In fact, the past million years or so have followed a very predictable pattern of warming and cooling, and at this point over the next couple thousand years we'll probably reach the apex of the warming trend we're in and head back down towards an ice age.

Whether or not humans have an impact on that warming trend is still not conclusively decided. Climatology isn't realy my specialty beyond the impacts of geology on it (which are huge, as you can tell from above). Saying that it's totally untrue is just as bad as saying it's proven.

*edit* Should note that the Ice Age & Central America thing was about the last major ice age. There have been smaller ones since then.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:54 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Khross wrote:
In the world of real science, do you know what that means?


They need more funding?


No, it means that everyone pointing out the shennanigans is an industry shill. There's a consensus that the consensus is correct and the data is good, don't you know?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:04 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Screeling wrote:
I think its funny that that piece of ice he's standing on looks like a mushroom cloud.

Nuke the polar bears! And the pandas! Little furry bastards are eating all of our penguins and bamboo shoots. ALL of them!

Edit: Yes, I know polar bears do not co-exist with penguins


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Last edited by DFK! on Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:45 am 
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The people of this Alaskan villiage wish to thank you all for your absolute devotion to denialism

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:05 am 
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,578990,00.html

Quote:

ABC didn't cover it. CBS didn't either. And NBC apparently wouldn't go near it.

The network news broadcasts have ignored a growing scandal over evidence of a potential climate cover-up — and now they've even been scooped by the fake news at Comedy Central.

"The Daily Show with Jon Stewart" produced its "reporting" on Climate-gate Tuesday night, when Stewart quipped, “Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!”

Stewart described leaked e-mails from Britain's University of East Anglia, including one referring to a researcher's "trick" to "hide the decline" in some temperature readings in recent decades.

"It's just scientist-speak for using a standard statistical technique — recalibrating data – in order to trick you," Stewart said sarcastically.

Nearly two weeks since news broke of the e-mail scandal, climate change skeptics have gloated; a leading climate scientist has resigned; at least one U.S. lawmaker has called for an investigation, and countless prominent news outlets have deemed the story worthy of major reporting.

Still, according to a report Wednesday morning by the conservative Media Research Center, "none of the broadcast network weekday morning and evening news shows addressed Climate-Gate or the incriminating Jones development. ... This marked 12 days since the information was first uncovered that they have ignored this global scandal."

The Business & Media Institute had just as much trouble finding the networks' Climate-gate coverage.

"An examination of morning and evening news programs on ABC, CBS and NBC since Nov. 20 yielded zero mentions of the scandal, even in the Nov. 25 reports about Obama going to Copenhagen to discuss the need for emissions reductions," the Institute reported Wednesday.
Related Stories

* Facing Scandal, Head of Climate Research Lab to Temporarily Step Down
* Climate Change Scientists Admit Dumping Data
* Climate Skeptics See 'Smoking Gun' in Researchers' Leaked E-Mails

But during that time, the Institute says, "the networks reported on pro-golfer Tiger Woods' 'minor' car accident at least 37 times. They also found time to report on an orphaned Moose and the meal selection at the president’s State Dinner."

Media Research Center President Brent Bozell reacted to the findings saying, "To pretend this story simply doesn’t exist is damning to journalism."

That left Stewart to fill the void — with analysis of the comedic variety.

The comedian mocked the scientists for discarding the raw data used to formulate the adjusted temperature data that much of the scientific community agrees confirms global warming is occurring.

"Why would you throw out raw data from the '80s? I still have Penthouses from the '70s!" he joked.

Click here to see Stewart's Climate-gate broadcast.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:14 am 
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Monte wrote:


You can't use an article that assumes climate chacge exists as some sort of evidence that it does, alledged affects on villagers notwithstanding. Aside from the blatant appeal to consequences, the fact that these villagers are somehow affected by something in no way shows that it's climate change.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:17 am 
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http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... inal-probe

Looks like Boxer views the hack as the bigger problem...rather then a decade + of misinformation and deception.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:25 am 
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Atrios, commenting on Boxer's point, said the following, and nails it -

Atrios wrote:
This really is not even debatable. Data was stolen and then misrepresented in order to slander specific individuals, even to accuse them of criminal wrongdoing: this is what happened.

"ClimateGate" is about the contemptible methodology of powerful interests cheering on mass human suffering for narrow financial gain, full stop. It's about theft and libel. Period.


The information in these emails does not portray what you guys claim it does. You are just as guilty of libel as the people who hacked this information and then cherry picked it for misleading quotes that play well on TV.

You have been duped using what amounts to the Wizard's First Rule - people will believe any lie because they want to believe it or they are afraid that it's true. Boxer is absolutely right. This was a criminal act, and should be investigated as such. The letters do *not* say what you guys are trumpeting, but the explanation of why doesn't play well on TV.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:28 am 
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Montegue:

No one's cherry picking anything. Where is the original data? Can it be verified and used to repeat the experiments and research of the CRU? Yes or No? If yes, then you have science. If no, then you have fraud.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:30 am 
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Let me turn around that rule for you, Monte:

You have been duped by a lie for over a decade because you want to believe it or are afraid it's true.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:36 am 
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Yes, they are, Khross. You are one of the most vocal world-is-actually-flat deniers of global climate change on the board, and no amount of evidence is actually going to change your mind.

Here is a link - Realclimate.org, and there you'll find your concerns addressed.

I have exactly zero faith that , in going there, and reading the well reasoned answers to all of this crap, that you will actually come around. It does not fit your frame, Khross, and as we discovered with a number of other issues, when you decide something is a certain way, it can be no other way.

Go there. Read with an open mind. Or don't. It honestly doesn't matter. There is absolutely no way I am going to convince anyone here that the very real science is still very real, because some hacker stole information and then misrepresented it in order to muddy the waters.

Kaffis - you are simply, and totally, wrong. The people that have been duped are those that continually accept piss poor sensationalist journalism over actual scientific fact. The world is not flat, no matter how many brilliant scientists got beheaded over arguing that it was round.

The truth is, people here *want*, nay *need* those waters to be muddied. You *need* this, because the tough answers to the very real problem of HIGCC don't settle well with your economic and political philosophies.

There's too much money to be made in the industries that are slowly killing our planet. Short term money will almost always win out against long term sustainability.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:40 am 
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The piss poor sensationalism is that coming from the HIGCC theorists.

Scientific fact is peer reviewed. And Phil Jones never *ever*, despite several requests, released his original data. That's not science.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:52 am 
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Montegue:

Given that Michael Mann is one of the scientists implicated by the emails, you probably shouldn't link his blog and expect credible evaluations of the commentary; especially since he's not even qualified to comment on the client per your standards:
Quote:
Dr. Mann received his undergraduate degrees in Physics and Applied Math from the University of California at Berkeley, an M.S. degree in Physics from Yale University, and a Ph.D. in Geology & Geophysics from Yale University. His research focuses on the application of statistical techniques to understanding climate variability and climate change from both empirical and climate model-based perspectives. Current areas of research include paleoclimate data synthesis and statistical climate reconstruction using climate “proxy” data networks, and model/data comparisons aimed at understanding the long-term behavior of the climate system and its relationship with possible external (including anthropogenic) “forcings” of climate. Other areas of active research include development of statistical methods for climate signal detection, and investigations of the response of geophysical and ecological systems to climate variability and climate change scenarios.
I don't see a degree in climate science in there ...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:54 am 
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HIGCC science is very strongly peer reviewed, Kaffis. It has been for a very long time. If you bothered to flip the channel away from Fox News, you might be able to gather some actual facts, instead of ginned up facts that fit your desired frame.

Khross - "Implicated" is a funny word. It only means something when there is actually something going on. There is no deception. There is no conspiracy. There are a bunch of people pre-disposed to deny global warming latching themselves to a misleading attempt to muddy the waters. Kind of like when the "birth certificate" non-scandal happened, when the whitey tape never actually came out, and when Vince Foster was not-murdered by Bill Clinton.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:01 am 
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Montegue:

Heavily peer-reviewed by a group admitting to collusion in emails. The problem here is that you're asking us to take the word of the involved parties are fact when their actions are the ones in question. They have undermined their own credibility on the subject. And, you still can't answer this question: how do you verify their conclusions when you cannot repeat their experiments?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:36 am 
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What exactly is out of context about putting raw source on the internet?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:41 am 
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Well, apparently asking for real science on the matter is being a "flat out denier." It's too bad, really. The CRU Email Incident should prompt real debate and disclosure. Instead, the invested parties are merely sticking their heads in the sand and screaming, "Listen to use because we say so."

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Last edited by Khross on Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:54 am 
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It's truely astounding to watch someone continue to use the same facts and support for a line of reasoning when the source of those facts and support is what's been caught red-handed lying in the first place.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:57 am 
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Heh. Montegue, if HIGCC science is heavily peer reviewed, link me to somebody who's gone through and repeated Phil Jones' studies. And no, I'm not talking about somebody else using his "value added" data; I mean somebody checking the methods and verifying the results used to come to the value added data set. I'd be happy to read some of the peer review on the subject.

Secondly, you may as well stop making a fool out of yourself; DFK! can attest that the only time I lay my eyes on Fox News is when I'm visiting my Mom's house and she's got it on when I arrive. DFK! can also relate how I rant about what a pathetic policy debater Hannity is.

But if you think it sounds "cutting" or "acerbic" to ridicule my slavish devotion to Fox News, hey, I'm not the one who looks like a fool when you do.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:00 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It's truely astounding to watch someone continue to use the same facts and support for a line of reasoning when the source of those facts and support is what's been caught red-handed lying in the first place.


Yes, and even worse is that if there was, for instance, science that homosexual marriage was bad for society but the researchers had behaved as the HI crowd has, some folks would likely be red-faced and screaming in denunciation of said research.


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