What always amazes me is that people forget that with the exception of public media outlets, all media corporations are in it to make money.
The CEO of my last company was once told this by the editor of our local paper. "Jay, if I write a nice story about you, your mother buys the paper. If I write a damning story about you, everyone buys the paper. I'm in the business of selling papers..."
So the media will jump on and promote whatever they think will sell "papers", not whatever is fair or balanced.
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am Posts: 15740 Location: Combat Information Center
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I think the thing is that the racial attacks against whites since Trayvon haven't been exclusively racial attacks. Some have, but some have just been regular crime where the criminal decided to throw in a little outrage over this case to mask the fact that he wanted to snatch a wallet or purse.
Which is funny, because now they get hate crime charges too.
I doubt they think it through to that extent.
_________________ "Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."
_________________ "It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."
I have no doubt that Zimmerman had to use deadly forcestay in the frackin' car and let the police handle it like he was told instead of harassing an innocent guy minding his own business and thereby triggering the whole event to save his own life.
FTFY.
In all seriousness, though, I never doubted there was a struggle and that Zimmerman thought he was justified in using deadly force at that point. However, I remain unsure as to whether he should be allowed to claim self-defense, given that he instigated the confrontation and it's plausible that Martin himself reasonably felt threatened and was thus entitled to a self-defense claim himself. If I were the prosecutor, based on the publicly-available info, I'd probably go for manslaughter.
I've wondered why there hasn't been more talk of a posthumous self-defense claim for Martin. Personally, if some bigger-than-me guy with a gun starts following me late at night, I'd sure as hell feel threatened.
Quote:
The police perspective was most succinctly stated in a March 13 "capias request" -- a request that someone be taken into custody -- sent to the state's attorney. It speaks to the fact that Zimmerman ignored a police dispatcher's advice not to chase Martin, as well as his communications with Martin prior to the shooting.
"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern" the request said. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity."
According to the Sanford police incident report of Trayvon Martin's death, he was 6'0" tall and weighed 160 pounds; however, his family said he was actually 6-foot-3 and weighed at most 150 pounds.[32] The autopsy report on Trayvon Martin gave his measurements as 71 inches long (5 feet 11 inches) and 158 pounds.
Quote:
Zimmerman's height is shown as 5'8" and his weight as 185 pounds on his Seminole County Sheriff's Office Inmate Booking Information dated 4/11/2012.[
I have no doubt that Zimmerman had to use deadly forcestay in the frackin' car and let the police handle it like he was told instead of harassing an innocent guy minding his own business and thereby triggering the whole event to save his own life.
FTFY.
In all seriousness, though, I never doubted there was a struggle and that Zimmerman thought he was justified in using deadly force at that point. However, I remain unsure as to whether he should be allowed to claim self-defense, given that he instigated the confrontation and it's plausible that Martin himself reasonably felt threatened and was thus entitled to a self-defense claim himself. If I were the prosecutor, based on the publicly-available info, I'd probably go for manslaughter.
Zimmerman didn't break the law. While he may have set things in motion by being suspicious of Martin(guy at night in the rain in a crime ridden community, he had reasonable cause to think something might not be right), Zimmerman STOPPED FOLLOWING MARTIN! Martin was home free, Zimmermans "instigation" was done with. Martin came back, so the instigation was now on him. He attacked Zimmerman and got shot. Zimmerman should be a free man.
_________________ "It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."
I've wondered why there hasn't been more talk of a posthumous self-defense claim for Martin. Personally, if some bigger-than-me guy with a gun starts following me late at night, I'd sure as hell feel threatened.
Quote:
The police perspective was most succinctly stated in a March 13 "capias request" -- a request that someone be taken into custody -- sent to the state's attorney. It speaks to the fact that Zimmerman ignored a police dispatcher's advice not to chase Martin, as well as his communications with Martin prior to the shooting.
"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern" the request said. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity."
He wasn't that much bigger so that argument doesn't fly very far(and it depends on what you consider bigger...Martin was taller but Zim had more poundage on him). And there is no proof that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun(until he shot him...I mean if Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun, would he have attacked him like he did??) so that arguement is a big fat no. Zimmerman may have followed Martin for a while, but Martin attacked Zimmerman.
_________________ "It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."
I don't think Zimmerman should have minded his business.
Should all neighborhood watchmen, whether appointed or not, be abolished? If someone sees something "suspicious" should they just let it be so as to not be involved?
Ok, Trayvon was doing nothing wrong. But neither was Zimmerman. He had a legitimate reason to suspect Trayvon of "something". (Previous burglaries in the community)
Why should the default position always be Mind your own business? What if Trayvon was about to commit a crime? Zimmerman's watch would have prevented it (Not at all saying that Trayvon was going to break the law). Is that not what a neighborhood watch is for?
I have been hearing about this on the local radio for the past couple of weeks:
Customers can now report suspicious activity via text messaging June 8, 2011 NJT-11-027
NEWARK, NJ — As part of the agency’s commitment to maintaining a heightened sense of vigilance across the transit system, NJ TRANSIT Police Chief Christopher Trucillo today announced a new and convenient way for customers to report suspicious activity or unattended packages: text messaging.
Through this initiative, called “Text Tips” or “Text Against Terror,” customers will be able to report suspicious activity, packages or vehicles around NJ TRANSIT facilities or onboard the system by sending a text message to NJTPD (65873). Messages will go directly to the NJ TRANSIT Police Department.
“As the eyes and ears of the NJ TRANSIT system, our customers and employees are the first line of defense in the war against terror, so it is critical that we all remain vigilant and aware of our surroundings,” said Chief Trucillo. “This new initiative enables us to harness the prevalence of text-messaging among our customers to enhance the security of our transit system.”
Text Tips will complement NJ TRANSIT’s existing security hotline — 1-888-TIPS-NJT — which was established in 2003 to enable customers to call in reports of suspicious activity or unattended packages across the system. All calls are investigated, and all information is confidential. (To report a crime in progress or request immediate police or emergency assistance, customers should call 911 or the NJ TRANSIT Police Communications Center at 1-800-242-0236 or 973-378-6565.)
When reporting a tip, customers are encouraged to provide as much information as possible, such as the location of the suspicious activity or package, the nature of the activity, and a description of the person(s) involved. After the text is received by NJ TRANSIT Police, customers may receive a follow-up text message to gather additional information.
To make it even easier for customers to report suspicious activity while en route, NJ TRANSIT has also launched a special security page on the mobile version of njtransit.com, accessible from web-enabled mobile devices.
The Text Tips initiative is funded through a grant from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, along with a supporting awareness campaign that includes radio and television ads, posters, panel cards and other tactics to get the word out to customers.
About NJ TRANSIT
NJ TRANSIT is the nation's largest statewide public transportation system providing more than 895,000 weekday trips on 240 bus routes, three light rail lines and 12 commuter rail lines. It is the third largest transit system in the country with 165 rail stations, 60 light rail stations and more than 18,000 bus stops linking major points in New Jersey, New York and Philadelphia.
New Jersey Transit has instituted a Security initiative advising any and all transit patrons to "Text for Terror". If you witness something suspicious, you are to text your suspicions to this one central line. IMO it may be a little over the top, but how is something like this any different than what Zimmerman was doing? (Being suspicious)
I don't see Zimmerman's actions as a watchman for the neighborhood as anything other than good intentioned. Unfortunately, this one incident came out very badly and now two families are suffering.
I can't be awake at all hours of the night and if there was a person who patrolled my neighborhood for suspicious activities, I'd be thankful. Maybe Zimmerman was a little overzealous in his duties and should have just observed and phoned in. We still don't know how the confrontation started either. He may have been doing exactly that and when he turned back to his car was jumped by Trayvon. I don't see for one second, though,how anyone could fault him if he was merely phoning in a suspicious person in his neighborhood because he was concerned of a potential crime.
_________________ This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.
I don't think Zimmerman should have minded his business.
Should all neighborhood watchmen, whether appointed or not, be abolished? If someone sees something "suspicious" should they just let it be so as to not be involved?
Stop the hyperbole.
They are supposed to do what he did, CALL THE POLICE. He then took it upon himself to escalate the situation.
In essence, Neighborhood Watch is a crime prevention program that stresses education and common sense (Stegenga 2000). It teaches citizens how to help themselves by identifying and reporting suspicious activity in their neighborhoods. In addition, it provides citizens with the opportunity to make their neighborhoods safer and improve the quality of life. Neighborhood Watch groups typically focus on observation and awareness as a means of preventing crime and employ strategies that range from simply promoting social interaction and "watching out for each other" to active patrols by groups of citizens (Yin, et al., 1976).
As a nation we are being asked to be more “vigilant” and practice “heightened awareness.” What does this mean to us as citizens? What you shouldn’t do: Invade someone’s privacy. Confront individuals. Personally investigate suspicious activity. Take the law into your own hands.
From later in the materials:
Quote:
Never confront or try to directly investigate something that is suspicious and never put yourself in danger. If you feel in danger, leave the area and call 9-1-1.
Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. MEMBERS SHOULD NEVER CONFRONT SUSPICIOUS PERSONS WHO COULD BE ARMED AND DANGEROUS.
Bold: Me; Caps: THEM:
Quote:
Recognizing Suspicious Activity BE ALERT. Anything that seems slightly “out of place” or is occurring at an unusual time of day could be criminal activity. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND A PERSON COMMITTING A CRIME OR TO INVESTIGATE A SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. Call the police or sheriff’s department immediately, and do not worry about being embarrassed if your suspicions prove to be unfounded. Law enforcement officers would rather investigate than be called when it is too late.
_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin
Yeah, Zimmerman went well beyond what a Neighborhood Watch person is supposed to do. Also, walking around at night is not a suspicious activity, so he had no legitimate reason to be suspicious of Martin in the first place anyway. As for what happened, it's not clear what the exact chain of events leading to the confrontation was, but we do know that (a) Zimmerman followed Martin in his car (source: Zimmerman's 911 call); (b) Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin on foot, including running to catch up with him (source: Zimmerman's 911 call); (c) Martin was nervous about some dude following him and tried to run away (source: Martin's call to his girlfriend); (d) immediately prior to the struggle, Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him and Zimmerman did not explain but instead questioned Martin about what he was doing in the area (source: Martin's call to his girlfriend). There's no indication that Zimmerman was leaving and Martin came back to him, as NF suggests, other than Zimmerman's post-shooting, obviously self-interested statement to police.
Now tell me honestly, if you were walking home late at night, and some guy rolls up on you in a car, follows for a while, gets out of his car and follows you on foot, even chasing you at a run for a while, wouldn't you be worried you were about to get attacked?
There's a very important difference you fail to recognize. Martin was black, and therefore suspicious. Zimmerman is not black and had aspirations of becoming a police officer, and therefore beyond reproach.
_________________ Buckle your pants or they might fall down.
I've wondered why there hasn't been more talk of a posthumous self-defense claim for Martin. Personally, if some bigger-than-me guy with a gun starts following me late at night, I'd sure as hell feel threatened.
Quote:
The police perspective was most succinctly stated in a March 13 "capias request" -- a request that someone be taken into custody -- sent to the state's attorney. It speaks to the fact that Zimmerman ignored a police dispatcher's advice not to chase Martin, as well as his communications with Martin prior to the shooting.
"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern" the request said. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity."
There's a very important difference you fail to recognize. Martin was black, and therefore suspicious. Zimmerman is not black and had aspirations of becoming a police officer, and therefore beyond reproach.
This is representative of every post of yours I've seen of late.
I get the sarcastic value of statements like this once or twice, but... are you trying to make some bigger point?
IMO, he probably thought that his watch duties included stopping the assumed, impending crime rather than to just let it happen and be the intel for the responding officer.
What I don't see is any proof other than the loud blathering of the likes of Al and Jesse that this was racially motivated.
Zimmerman overstepped his bounds as a neighborhood watchman perhaps, but that doesn't give Trayvon Martin carte blanche to then attack him because he was being followed.
I will be very interested in seeing where this goes in trial.
_________________ This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.
There's no indication that Zimmerman was leaving and Martin came back to him, as NF suggests, other than Zimmerman's post-shooting, obviously self-interested statement to police.
Or you know, the truth? Do you have proof that he was lying?
RangerDave wrote:
Now tell me honestly, if you were walking home late at night, and some guy rolls up on you in a car, follows for a while, gets out of his car and follows you on foot, even chasing you at a run for a while, wouldn't you be worried you were about to get attacked?
Now tell me honestly, you live in a community that is crime ridden, you see a guy walking around in the rain acting somewhat funny(it's been reported that he had traces of THC in his system). You call 911, follow the guy so the cops can question him and for some reason, he decides to take off(hey, if we are assuming things, why do people who haven't or aren't doing anything wrong run off? Also, let's continue YOUR line of thought...why would Martin be afraid of him RD? He certainly wasn't afraid of him when he decied to punch him in the face, jump on him and beat his head into the concrete...I ask you RD, does that sound like someone worried about getting attacked?) then comes back and attacks you. Wouldn't you do whatever you could to protect yourself if you feared for your life?
_________________ "It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."
Last edited by Nitefox on Fri May 18, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Also, walking around at night is not a suspicious activity, so he had no legitimate reason to be suspicious of Martin in the first place anyway.
According to Hopwin's posted guidelines from the "Usaonwatch" neighborhood watch manual, specifically:
CAPs, them. Bolding, me.
Quote:
Recognizing Suspicious Activity BE ALERT. Anything that seems slightly “out of place” or is occurring at an unusual time of day could be criminal activity. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND A PERSON COMMITTING A CRIME OR TO INVESTIGATE A SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. Call the police or sheriff’s department immediately, and do not worry about being embarrassed if your suspicions prove to be unfounded. Law enforcement officers would rather investigate than be called when it is too late.
...what Trayvon was doing at that particular time was the picture of suspicion. It would seem that a good neighborhood watchman should act on any suspicion and not worry one bit about being wrong (as in this case, Zimmerman most likely was...Trayvon was doing nothing). The police would rather come out on a false alarm than respond to a crime in progress.
_________________ This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.
According to Hopwin's posted guidelines from the "Usaonwatch" neighborhood watch manual, specifically:
CAPs, them. Bolding, me.
Quote:
Recognizing Suspicious Activity BE ALERT. Anything that seems slightly “out of place” or is occurring at an unusual time of day could be criminal activity. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND A PERSON COMMITTING A CRIME OR TO INVESTIGATE A SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY. Call the police or sheriff’s department immediately, and do not worry about being embarrassed if your suspicions prove to be unfounded. Law enforcement officers would rather investigate than be called when it is too late.
...what Trayvon was doing at that particular time was the picture of suspicion. It would seem that a good neighborhood watchman should act on any suspicion and not worry one bit about being wrong (as in this case, Zimmerman most likely was...Trayvon was doing nothing). The police would rather come out on a false alarm than respond to a crime in progress.
OK, I'll bold the all-caps "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND A PERSON COMMITTING A CRIME OR TO INVESTIGATE A SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY" part, then...
Quoting me, bolding me, italics me, lack of caps...also me. Hell, the whole thing is me.
Foamy wrote:
I see, then, were Zimmerman went wrong.
IMO, he probably thought that his watch duties included stopping the assumed, impending crime rather than to just let it happen and be the intel for the responding officer.
What I don't see is any proof other than the loud blathering of the likes of Al and Jesse that this was racially motivated.
Zimmerman overstepped his bounds as a neighborhood watchman perhaps, but that doesn't give Trayvon Martin carte blanche to then attack him because he was being followed.
I will be very interested in seeing where this goes in trial.
_________________ This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.
Now tell me honestly, you live in a community that is crime ridden, you see a guy walking around in the rain acting somewhat funny(it's been reported that he had traces of THC in his system). You call 911
That is where you stop. Especially if you live in a "crime ridden community". (also fascinating that your argument includes a statement about THC in his system since you can't recognize that at a glance)
Nitefox wrote:
follow the guy so the cops can question him
And here your train has jumped off the tracks.
_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin
Now tell me honestly, if you were walking home late at night, and some guy rolls up on you in a car, follows for a while, gets out of his car and follows you on foot, even chasing you at a run for a while, wouldn't you be worried you were about to get attacked?
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:28 pm Posts: 476 Location: The 10th circle
If you see someone following you, looking around for you, even walking up to you and asking you a question, and that understandably is making you nervous, are you then legally justified to assault and beat the crap out of the person?
I'm not sure why some here are failing to think rationally.
Now tell me honestly, if you were walking home late at night, and some guy rolls up on you in a car, follows for a while, gets out of his car and follows you on foot, even chasing you at a run for a while, wouldn't you be worried you were about to get attacked?
I'd turn on him.
I'd make haste to the closest well-lit, public area making sure to be in visual range of anyone who can witness what may be about to happen. Failing that, I'd start shouting for help and making some noise to bring attention to the situation. The last thing I'd do is turn and face them.
1. I'm not trained in any soft of self-defense 2. I don't know if said person is potentially armed. Why would I stop and make whatever it is that they may be about to do easier for them by staying within reach of them.
EDIT - What Slythe just said. I don't understand this perception of "Someone's is following me, that pisses me off. I get to jump them and beat them nearly to death."
_________________ This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.
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