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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:13 am 
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Now here's a good write up...

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2012/05/ ... straction/


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Gay Marriage as a Distraction

Posted By Roger L Simon On May 10, 2012 @ 12:02 am In Uncategorized | 20 Comments

Unlike Barack Obama, I have been an unwavering public supporter of gay marriage since first writing on the subject on my blog almost ten years ago. I remain so today. It is a clear human rights issue to me.

That said, I think same-sex marriage is being shamelessly exploited by the president whose constant vacillations on the topic are the stuff of farce — first supporting it [1], then not, then “evolving” a policy, then being absolutely against it (only a year ago, according to a spokesperson) and finally, May 9, 2012, claiming to have sufficiently “evolved” to be for it.

Liar.

Barack Obama has been for same-sex marriage (to the extent he is for anything other than himself) since he declared himself a supporter back in the nineties in Chicago. He just changed his mind publicly for electoral expediency. Now he is changing his mind back for the same reason, but it’s amped up. He wants to put Mitt Romney – who polls are showing to be a formidable presidential opponent – on the spot on an issue the governor would rather not talk about (and probably shouldn’t).

Obama and his people are seeking to change the subject of this election from the dreadful financial condition of our country to same-sex marriage or anything else that sticks.

Don’t fall for the bait.

In Romney’s words: “It’s the economy — and we’re not stupid.” (We better not be!)

Keeping the focus, however, won’t be easy. You can bet the media will be beating the drum constantly on this one, gay marriage being a far more emotionally potent issue than the trivial nonsense they’ve been flogging of late, dogs on car roofs, etc.

Moreover, our gay friends and relations are going to be angry about being asked to have their rights put on the back burner again. It may be of little use to remind them that they too are suffering from the unending economic meltdown whose greatest indicator is the similarly unending decline in the Labor Particiption Rate [2]. More and more people of all sexual orientations have simply given up on finding a job. Even the high 8.1% unemployment rate is a fake. The real numbers are staggering.

The day Obama finally declares for gay marriage, the news that we should all be paying attention to is the Fed has approved China’s first U.S. bank takeover. Will America ever be the same? What will happen to our freedoms?

On that note, our gay friends may not be consoled either by a reminder of Obama’s policy on Iran — a country where (forget marriage!) gays are hanged for their sexual orientation. In what was for me the most reprehensible presidential foreign policy moment of my lifetime, Barack Obama failed to give support to the democracy demonstrators in Iran, preferring to engage in negotiations with Ahmadinejad that might reflect glory on the president himself. Result? More prisoners (homosexual and heterosexual) rotted and continue to rot in Tehran’s Evin Prison and Iran remains a soon-to-be nuclear hotbed of Islamic fascism.

But there’s one more thing, as Steve Jobs would say, that just might console our gay friends and their allies and help them keep their eyes on the economic ball this election. At least it should: Gay marriage is already virtually a fait accompli.

Those of us who live in urban America see it all around us — tons of gay couples, sometimes in large communities, living together, working, having kids (adopted or in vitro or sometimes from broken heterosexual marriages), and doing almost everything straight couples do. And nobody seems to care. Almost nobody, anyway.

Yes, there are still some legalities that need to be adjusted, but that will come, especially since the polls show the younger generation overwhelmingly in favor of same-sex marriage. It is only we geezers who object. (Okay, I don’t.) And, as we know, the minorities. As of now, same-sex marriage is a white man’s game (Obama excepted, of course).

Nevertheless, whatever your opinion of gay marriage, I am writing this article to urge you not to engage. The issue is a sideshow intended to distract. If our country goes the way of Greece – and writing this from the City of Los Angeles, it’s not so hard to imagine – you can forget any issue, whatever your favorite one is. You won’t be living in America anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:32 am 
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Where has anyone suggested that ministers/priests would be forced to perform any sort of ceremony?

A justice of the peace or public official is one thing, because they're employees of the state/county/city.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:40 am 
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Given Obama had no problem forcing catholic institutions to pay for birth control I can see why there might be cause for concern. That said, it doesnt override the fact that gay couples provide the same social benefits as hetero couples and thus should be entitled to the same government protections and incentives.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:53 am 
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@Kaffis & Rorinthas
-Am I to understand that things work better in Canada because we're just nicer people? Especially our very nice gay people?

I've long found the generalization that Americans are rude and demanding somewhat offensive, because honestly, you're subtlely more outgoing and friendly as a culture, in my experience, anyway. Of course, outgoing and friendly does not mean less demanding, either. So I'm not saying you're wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:56 am 
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Americans have no problem rocking the boat. And rocking the boat to get their way, especially.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:40 am 
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I'm curious how people here would answer this: Is marriage a civil right?

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:45 am 
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I haven't noticed that Canadians, individually, are all that different socially from the average American, at least for the states that border Canada. Except for the Quebecois.

As for the issue, I put this in the same category as abortion. I don't even consider it when selecting a Presidential candidate. It is, IMO, purely a state issue, and that actually makes me agree with Obama even more; I agree with his position on a personal level, and I also agree with his statement that it's a state issue, legally.

In fact, the only way I care about this issue in regards to a President is in measuring how much emphasis they put on it. A Presidential candidate that makes a major campaign issue, plank, or point of gay marriage, in either direction (or abortion for that matter, and most other social issues) is disqualified from my vote by virtue of focusing on trivialities.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:58 am 
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I'm not sure I can agree it's a state issue. If people/families never moved states that would be one thing.
But since marriage has federal implications (taxes), as well as legal/constitutional ramifications (spouses cannot be compelled to testify against each other) it pretty well MUST be taken up at the national level.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:06 am 
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The fact that people never move states is irrelevant. We already have a full faith and credit clause to address that.

As to the rest, it hardly has any ramifications or implications. If someone wants to compel someone to testify against another person, the only question in regards to marriage is "are they legally married in any state?" There's no reason that the rules need to be uniform in order to enforce that. The same applies to taxes. If people are married, they can file jointly. If not, they can't. The fact that the rules are different in different states hardly affects the status of any given couple.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:09 am 
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Currently that clause is up in the air. Its been ruled both ways at the appeals level, and the SCOTUS has not ruled.

What about spousal visitation in hospital?


Last edited by TheRiov on Thu May 10, 2012 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:13 am 
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What about it? If people are married legally in any state, full faith and credit makes them married in any other state. If you're married, you can use spousal visitation; if not, you can't. This applies to any two people and is in no way affected by who can get married in the first place.

As for the status of Full Faith and Credit, that seems to be the most obvious interpretation of it. If it's not ruled that way, it still doesn't somehow make marriage qualifications a Federal issue. It's just the other side of the same coin; you can't impose the laws of one state on another.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Thu May 10, 2012 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:13 am 
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see edit.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:18 am 
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Marriage is not a constitutionally protected or defined state. Let alone a right.

Just saying, since most of you seem to have forgotten that.

In fact, neither "marriage," "marry," "wed," "husband," nor "wife" even appears in the text of the document.

Thus, Amendment X and Full Faith and Credit would seem to apply, no?

That said, there's nothing to stop a State from deciding not to recognize any legal benefits to marriage at all if it really doesn't want to honor gay marriages performed in another State.

I look forward to such a shitstorm, because it would be awesome.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:38 am 
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Re: awesome shitstorms...

Why is polygamy illegal? Not just Utah/LDS polygyny, either... what's wrong with group marriage? Polyandry? Can we even (fairly) talk about broadening our state-sanctioned recognition of one man/one woman without acknowledging that it's a more complex issue than hetero/homosexuality? I'm guessing there are more people in polygamous relationships, globally, than homosexual ones.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 am 
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Polygamous relationships almost invariably result in an unequal internal power structure and globally tend to crop up in cultures that tend not to treat women in ways we approve of. Single marriages can, but they don't carry the internal imbalance in significance of the parties that polygamy generally does, to say nothing of the propensity of polygamous societies to marry off very young girls to older men.

Technically, if a state wants to allow polygamy, it can do so. However no state does and there's no more reason to impose polygamy (or ban it) nationally than there is to impose or ban same-sex marriage nationally.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:47 am 
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Jeryn wrote:
I'm guessing there are more people in polygamous relationships, globally, than homosexual ones.


Global population has nothing to do with our laws, and in our own population I'm guessing you're way off.

Edit - that said, other than the idea that polygamy is gross, I don't particularly think it should be illegal.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Global population has nothing to do with our laws, and in our own population I'm guessing you're way off.

Edit - that said, other than the idea that polygamy is gross, I don't particularly think it should be illegal.
If I'd said within our own population, yes, I would have been off, but I didn't :) Polygamy does exist abroad, though, and raises a lot of issues like the ones that DE mentioned... and sometimes some of those folks wind up here. It's easy to say welcome to America, check your culture and values at the door, here's ours. We tend to try to protect minority interests, though, and be accommodating where possible of, you might say, "marginalized" or under-represented populations. For example, where do we draw the line between minor accommodations of Islamic law and its permission of polygamy? (Edit: right now, we don't allow it at all, but if you're going to go ahead and start recognizing other forms of marriage, then doesn't that really open the floor for other discussions?)

I didn't raise the point because I had a particular interest in whether it's palatable, though, or really even based on how many people lean that way. Looking at it from a government's perspective, if you're extending benefits to anyone based on their familial status, equal protection says you have to be, well, equitable. There are all sorts of rights and protections extended to "married" couples. Once government walked through that door in the first place, it opened itself to all sorts of questions as to what constitutes a marriage. If polygamy isn't illegal, do you start telling Cigna that this guy's four spouses must all be considered valid dependents?


Last edited by Jeryn on Thu May 10, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Jeryn wrote:
I'm guessing there are more people in polygamous relationships, globally, than homosexual ones.


Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Jeryn wrote:
I'm guessing there are more people in polygamous relationships, globally, than homosexual ones.


Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Well, true :) But if you made a big global Venn diagram, my guess was that the "poly" circle was bigger than the "gay/lesbian" one. But yes, there's bound to be some some overlap.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Are you including swinger, polyamorous, or actual polygamists


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Jeryn wrote:
I didn't raise the point because I had a particular interest in whether it's palatable, though, or really even based on how many people lean that way. Looking at it from a government's perspective, if you're extending benefits to anyone based on their familial status, equal protection says you have to be, well, equitable. There are all sorts of rights and protections extended to "married" couples. Once government walked through that door in the first place, it opened itself to all sorts of questions as to what constitutes a marriage. If polygamy isn't illegal, do you start telling Cigna that this guy's four spouses must all be considered valid dependents?

This is why I never seriously enter a gay marriage debate without first prompting the other participants to elaborate on what they feel the justification/role of the societal sanction of marriage is.

Oddly enough, few bother to respond and engage my questions in good faith. I get accused of trying to bait or trap them. :psyduck:

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Of course the answer should be that everyone should have equal protection under the law to marry whomever they please*, multiple people included. The problem is government having anything to do with it, and extending benefits like tax breaks. The only involvement the government should have is saying, "yes, we recognize your marriage" and be done with it.

* I would draw the line at humans.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Of course the answer should be that everyone should have equal protection under the law to marry whomever they please*, multiple people included. The problem is government having anything to do with it, and extending benefits like tax breaks. The only involvement the government should have is saying, "yes, we recognize your marriage" and be done with it.

* I would draw the line at humans.


Generally, being married is not a tax "break." In fact, married couples often pay more tax than they would if they were, say, just roommates.

The "benefits" come into play for things like insurance, automatic legalities that married couples take for granted, and guardianship of children.

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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Jeryn wrote:
I didn't raise the point because I had a particular interest in whether it's palatable, though, or really even based on how many people lean that way. Looking at it from a government's perspective, if you're extending benefits to anyone based on their familial status, equal protection says you have to be, well, equitable. There are all sorts of rights and protections extended to "married" couples. Once government walked through that door in the first place, it opened itself to all sorts of questions as to what constitutes a marriage. If polygamy isn't illegal, do you start telling Cigna that this guy's four spouses must all be considered valid dependents?

This is why I never seriously enter a gay marriage debate without first prompting the other participants to elaborate on what they feel the justification/role of the societal sanction of marriage is.

Oddly enough, few bother to respond and engage my questions in good faith. I get accused of trying to bait or trap them. :psyduck:


I think the problem with your question is that it's really four different questions. Are you asking what they think the role of societal sanction of marriage presently is, or what they think it should be?

Justification is a separate question. Are you asking how does society presently justify it's sanction of marriage, or how should it do so? This is further exacerbated because the question creates a counter-question: Why does society need to justify its sanction of marriage to anyone other than a consensus of its members? Why would society's role be anything other than what the consensus of that society says it is?

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Because mob rule is bad.

Edit:

Also because the idea of a "consensus" between 300 million people is fairly absurd in the first place.

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