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 Post subject: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:56 am 
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http://www.businessinsider.com/dear-ame ... 012-6?op=1

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In November, Americans will have a chance to speak their minds.
And there's one thing everyone should agree on:
America just isn't working right now.
It's not just Americans who aren't working. It's America itself, a country whose economy once worked for almost everyone, not just the rich.
In the old America, if you worked hard, you had a good chance of moving up.
In the old America, the fruits of people's labors accrued to the whole country, not just the top.
In the old America, there was a strong middle class, and their immense collective purchasing power drove the economy for decades.
No longer.
Over the past couple of decades, the disparity between "the 1%" and everyone else has hit a level not seen since the 1920s. And there is a widespread and growing sense that life here is not fair or right.
If America cannot figure out a way to fix these problems, the country will likely become increasingly polarized and de-stabilized. And if that happens, the recent "Occupy" protests will likely be only the beginning.
The problem in a nutshell is this:
In the never-ending tug-of-war between "labor" and "capital," there has rarely—if ever—been a time when "capital" was so clearly winning.
And that's not just unfair.
It's un-American.


There are an extraordinary amount of graphs and data in the article that help back up his position.


Last edited by Aizle on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:00 am 
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Um...

I mean, even if we just accept all that at face value, what the hell is government supposed to do about "if you worked hard, you had a chance of moving up"?

The implication that your vote can influence corporate promotion/hiring culture is really pretty scary.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:38 am 
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Life is unfair. It's not the governments job to try and change that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:47 pm 
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No. However, the government does need to pay attention to this sort of thing.

I look to the government for very little. However, the #1 thing I expect them to provide is some level of stability. No, I don't mean prevent recessions or that sort of thing, but they need to protect the borders and keep the peasants in check.

That means providing an environment that is, if not considered fair, considered acceptable. I'm really not interested in defending my property from angry mobs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:29 pm 
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Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.

Horse ****. That comes off as crazy as Elmo saying that liberty loving patriots are going to take up arms against the government. Maybe on the lunatic fringes both are true, but the truth is that no matter how much I might agree with Elmo philosophically, I enjoy my relative comfort too much. The same can be said for those who enjoy first world comfort without enjoying Warren Buffet's wealth. To do what you are suggesting they would have to relinquish all comfort and essentially become Somali pirates. It ain't happening, Stan.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:14 pm 
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If the "1%" had, say, 80 or 90% of available goods and services vaulted for their own personal use, then I could see the common man rising up to take a share. The problem is that the 1% really only care about wealth on paper (really, does Bill Gates need yet another ivory back scratcher?), and goods and services are generally distributed and affordable to a level beyond mere subsistence for most of the "99%." The government helps significantly at the low end with those sane enough to take advantage. Sane people, in my opinion, will *****, moan and maybe even hold rallies over economic envy, but will only rise up violently in desperation.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Tangu Matraa wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.

Horse ****. That comes off as crazy as Elmo saying that liberty loving patriots are going to take up arms against the government. Maybe on the lunatic fringes both are true, but the truth is that no matter how much I might agree with Elmo philosophically, I enjoy my relative comfort too much. The same can be said for those who enjoy first world comfort without enjoying Warren Buffet's wealth. To do what you are suggesting they would have to relinquish all comfort and essentially become Somali pirates. It ain't happening, Stan.


I suggest you read (and understand) more history.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Yes, it's not about the gap between wealthy and poor unless the poor don't have what they need. Then it's a problem.

Any society is only three missed meals away from revolution. (Unknown)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Tangu Matraa wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.

Horse ****. That comes off as crazy as Elmo saying that liberty loving patriots are going to take up arms against the government. Maybe on the lunatic fringes both are true, but the truth is that no matter how much I might agree with Elmo philosophically, I enjoy my relative comfort too much. The same can be said for those who enjoy first world comfort without enjoying Warren Buffet's wealth. To do what you are suggesting they would have to relinquish all comfort and essentially become Somali pirates. It ain't happening, Stan.


I suggest you read (and understand) more history.


He's not incorrect. People will ***** and moan about the wealth gap, but if they are meeting their own needs, it's not enough to generate violence on a wide scale.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:44 pm 
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While that's true Arathain, my post specifically stated if the wealth disparity continues to grow. If that happens, the poor will continue to get less and less and will eventually hit that threshold of not having their needs met.


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 Post subject: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Tangu Matraa wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.

Horse ****. That comes off as crazy as Elmo saying that liberty loving patriots are going to take up arms against the government. Maybe on the lunatic fringes both are true, but the truth is that no matter how much I might agree with Elmo philosophically, I enjoy my relative comfort too much. The same can be said for those who enjoy first world comfort without enjoying Warren Buffet's wealth. To do what you are suggesting they would have to relinquish all comfort and essentially become Somali pirates. It ain't happening, Stan.


I suggest you read (and understand) more history.


He's not incorrect. People will ***** and moan about the wealth gap, but if they are meeting their own needs, it's not enough to generate violence on a wide scale.


2011 London riots showed that is not the case. Well fed, housed, bored underclass burned and looted, and only state force broke it down, after 3 days. That's not revolution, but it puts informed self interest in another light.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
While that's true Arathain, my post specifically stated if the wealth disparity continues to grow. If that happens, the poor will continue to get less and less and will eventually hit that threshold of not having their needs met.

The creation of wealth does not create poverty. Wealth is not a static thing. It doesn't matter what the "wealth gap" is. I don't care if Warren Buffet's wealth is growing exponentially as long as I still have access to running water and indoor plumping.

As for me needing history lessons, I didn't realize the French Revolution, the Soviet Revolution, ect. Took place in modern first world nations with all the modern comforts we know today. Thanks for the lesson.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:16 pm 
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SuiNeko wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Tangu Matraa wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.

Horse ****. That comes off as crazy as Elmo saying that liberty loving patriots are going to take up arms against the government. Maybe on the lunatic fringes both are true, but the truth is that no matter how much I might agree with Elmo philosophically, I enjoy my relative comfort too much. The same can be said for those who enjoy first world comfort without enjoying Warren Buffet's wealth. To do what you are suggesting they would have to relinquish all comfort and essentially become Somali pirates. It ain't happening, Stan.


I suggest you read (and understand) more history.


He's not incorrect. People will ***** and moan about the wealth gap, but if they are meeting their own needs, it's not enough to generate violence on a wide scale.


2011 London riots showed that is not the case. Well fed, housed, bored underclass burned and looted, and only state force broke it down, after 3 days. That's not revolution, but it puts informed self interest in another light.

That has everything to do with mob mentality, and the pervasiveness of social media combined with a modern youth used to communicating with anonymity.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Tangu Matraa wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Arathain gets it.

If the wealth disparity continues to grow, then the masses WILL rise up and take violent action.

Horse ****. That comes off as crazy as Elmo saying that liberty loving patriots are going to take up arms against the government. Maybe on the lunatic fringes both are true, but the truth is that no matter how much I might agree with Elmo philosophically, I enjoy my relative comfort too much. The same can be said for those who enjoy first world comfort without enjoying Warren Buffet's wealth. To do what you are suggesting they would have to relinquish all comfort and essentially become Somali pirates. It ain't happening, Stan.


I suggest you read (and understand) more history.


I suggest you take a look at the differences between this country and places where poverty actually has caused mass uprisings. We, for all intents and purposes, don't have poverty in this country compared to those places. That's as absurd as the idea that we're living in some sort of totalitarian state just because there are some laws one doesn't like. If you seriously think that, you haven't the foggiest idea what totalitarianism really is.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:22 pm 
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SuiNeko wrote:
2011 London riots showed that is not the case. Well fed, housed, bored underclass burned and looted, and only state force broke it down, after 3 days. That's not revolution, but it puts informed self interest in another light.


Which didn't even come close to the critical mass necessary to be even remotely similar to a true revolt.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
While that's true Arathain, my post specifically stated if the wealth disparity continues to grow. If that happens, the poor will continue to get less and less and will eventually hit that threshold of not having their needs met.


That's not going to happen. Wealth disparity has nothing to do with the poor getting less, or any risk of them not having their needs met. The poor are getting more and more, just not at the same rate as the rich.

Relative poverty does not cause uprisings. Absolute poverty causes uprisings, usually in conjuction with far more serious oppression than anyone has ever experienced in this country. We're not even close and we're not getting closer.

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 Post subject: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:31 pm 
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This is part of what I hinted at in my rant thread. This seems as good a place as any to unload.

It has been amazing to see how little people can be content with when a government is not telling them they are entitled to Someone else's stuff.
We really have no idea what income inequality or the true 99 pct looks like. I got the barest glimpse. Trust me, no American has anything to whine about. We are Warren Buffet compared to some of the people I met last week. And it didn't seem to bother them one bit. My success didn't make them any poorer.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:03 pm 
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So let me ask a different question. None of you guys see anything concerning or wrong with those graphs in the article?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Not particularly. I don't even find them credible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
While that's true Arathain, my post specifically stated if the wealth disparity continues to grow. If that happens, the poor will continue to get less and less and will eventually hit that threshold of not having their needs met.



I don't think you understand wealth - still, at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:27 am 
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Still can't think of any wars started over jealousy.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
While that's true Arathain, my post specifically stated if the wealth disparity continues to grow. If that happens, the poor will continue to get less and less and will eventually hit that threshold of not having their needs met.


This assumes wealth is static. The poor in this country are probably much poorer as a function of the proportionality of the total worth of the country, currently. But they are clearly better off than the poor and even the rich of decades ago if you look at certain advents in technology, availability of cheap goods now as compared to cheap goods their counterparts had access to etc.

Arathain and Tangu are correct in that this bare minimum to keep people from revolting is basically met because society is so much more efficient than it used to be, regardless of how big the income disparity is between the two extremes. It takes more than just material wealth difference to invoke a rebellion. Not those ingredients don't exist, but not to levels that will precipitate anything occurring right now.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:21 pm 
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As of right now even the unemployed are still eating. When I realized that fact, I realized why Obama was pushing so hard to keep entitlements in place, and why the Republicans were pushing to have them lessened.

If the tug of war goes Obamas way, people will still vote for him. If it goes the Republican way, people will cry out for change again. The trick would be for the Republicans to pull enough to make people uncomfortable but not enough to tip them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:16 am 
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Exactly Han. We need someone who can effectively communicate and handle rolling back entitlements against the look a likes of him/her throwing Grandma off the cliff. I can't think of anyone in polictics today that fits that bill.

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