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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Really moving and well-written blog post from Andrew Sullivan about a new HIV-related documentary, "How to Survive a Plague". The quote below is most of it, but I recommend you click through and read the whole thing without the gaps and ellipses.


I've seen and read and written a lot about the AIDS plague in America, fifteen years of mass sickness and death that killed five times as many young Americans as the Vietnam War in roughly the same period of time. I was a volunteer "buddy" to a man dying from AIDS before I tested HIV-positive myself. I lost my dearest friend, who found out he had AIDS at the very moment I found out I was HIV-positive, and countless others as well. I was scared shitless for years. I remember one night talking on the phone to an old boyfriend who was in the same mess as I was: "One thing we need to remember, if we survive this," I said. "We must never forget how **** terrified we are."

I channeled that fear into my books, Virtually Normal and Love Undetectable. I wrote the first because I didn't expect to live to write the second. The date on the preface is the day I was diagnosed. I wrote the bleakest essay of my life in 1990 for TNR: "Gay Life, Gay Death." I went to ACT-UP meetings in New York City to absorb the scene and to Harlem's projects to see a dying gay man whose main worry was that a white guy like me on his doorstep would out him in front of his entire community. I watched young, vibrant men in their twenties turn into skeletons in a matter of weeks. I wandered through the great horizontal cathedral of the AIDS quilt on Washington's Mall, and saw a wave of grief that reduced the entire scene to an eerie silence.

People forget that HIV decimated the immune system - but people actually died from the opportunistic infections. These "OI"s were something out of Dante's Hell. So many drowned to death from pneumocystis. Or they would develop hideous KS lesions, or extremely painful neuropathy (my "buddy" screamed once when I brushed a bedsheet against the tip of his toes), or CMV where a friend of mine had to inject himself in the eyeball to prevent going blind, or toxoplasmosis, a brain degenerative disease where people wake up one day to find they can't tie their shoe-laces, and their memories are falling apart. Within the gay community, 300,000 deaths amounted to a plague of medieval dimensions. Once you knew your T-cells were below a certain level, it was like being in a dark forest where, at any moment, some hideous viral or bacterial creature could emerge and kill you. And for fifteen years there was nothing to take that worked, just the agonizing helplessness of waiting to die, and watching others get assaulted by one terrifying disease after another.

In this immense catastrophe, you had an almost epic tale: no sooner had a critical mass of gay men actually come out, established themselves in urban ghettoes, and finally celebrated their humanity and sexuality than they were struck down in droves. But the next part of the story is the most amazing. We could so easily have given up in shame or self-hatred or exhaustion. But somehow, we found the internal resources to fight back. We knew that the federal government would refuse to react as they would have had this disease occurred anywhere but among homosexuals. And so we were almost a model of self-help, activism and empowerment. We had nothing to lose any more - and that unleashed a kind of gay power that is the most powerful reason, in my view, for why we have made so much progress so quickly since.

..."How To Survive A Plague" is the first documentary that I have seen that does justice to this story of a civil rights movement rising from the ashes of our dead....If you want to understand the gay civil rights movement in the last twenty years, you need to see this film. None of it would have happened as it did, if we had not been radicalized by mass death, stripped of fear by imminent death, and determined to bring meaning to the corpses of our loved ones by fighting for the basic rights every heterosexual has taken for granted since birth. No spouse was ever going to be turned away from his husband's deathbed again, as far as I was concerned. Never. Again. For me, marriage equality is not an abstract concept. It has always been my attempt to make my friends' deaths mean something more than tragedy. And it is non-negotiable.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:06 pm 
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One of the problems I have with this:

"We knew that the federal government would refuse to react as they would have had this disease occurred anywhere but among homosexuals."

Is that anything the federal government would/could have done would have been accompanied by a wide scale quarentine at worst, and at best an edict not to engage in incredibly risky behavior (ie. don't let some dude plug you in the ***, and don't use IV drugs), both of which would have been considered, and rightly so, discrimination.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:16 pm 
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fifteen years of mass sickness and death that killed five times as many young Americans as the Vietnam War in roughly the same period of time.

That sounds off to me. Almost 300,000 people died of AIDS in 10ish years?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:14 pm 
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His perspective is probably skewed because he's gay, there was a time where over 5% of the gay male population was HIV+. It was especially bad when the disease wasn't well understood yet, so nobody knew if they were at risk of catching it or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
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fifteen years of mass sickness and death that killed five times as many young Americans as the Vietnam War in roughly the same period of time.

That sounds off to me. Almost 300,000 people died of AIDS in 10ish years?


15 years, but yeah.

http://www.avert.org/usa-statistics.htm

Says about half a million have died from it in the US alone.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Yeah, the number of people who have died "from AIDS" seems to be all over the map, because it's sometimes hard to say whether or not it was an AIDS-related cause of death (e.g. was the disease or organ failure that actually killed him a result of him having AIDS or just coincidental?). However, estimates are all pretty much in the 300-600k total AIDS-related deaths for the US, so yeah, if anything 300k is on the low side.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
One of the problems I have with this:

"We knew that the federal government would refuse to react as they would have had this disease occurred anywhere but among homosexuals."

Is that anything the federal government would/could have done would have been accompanied by a wide scale quarentine at worst, and at best an edict not to engage in incredibly risky behavior (ie. don't let some dude plug you in the ***, and don't use IV drugs), both of which would have been considered, and rightly so, discrimination.

I think the reaction they were looking for was government-funded research and treatment.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:51 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
One of the problems I have with this:

"We knew that the federal government would refuse to react as they would have had this disease occurred anywhere but among homosexuals."

Is that anything the federal government would/could have done would have been accompanied by a wide scale quarentine at worst, and at best an edict not to engage in incredibly risky behavior (ie. don't let some dude plug you in the ***, and don't use IV drugs), both of which would have been considered, and rightly so, discrimination.

I think the reaction they were looking for was government-funded research and treatment.

I think that's incredibly optimistic, especially examining an incredibly fatal and persistant communicable disease affecting an identifiable sub-segment of the population. Had the government become involved, Andrew Sullivan would have been living in a FEMA camp.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
One of the problems I have with this:

"We knew that the federal government would refuse to react as they would have had this disease occurred anywhere but among homosexuals."

Is that anything the federal government would/could have done would have been accompanied by a wide scale quarentine at worst, and at best an edict not to engage in incredibly risky behavior (ie. don't let some dude plug you in the ***, and don't use IV drugs), both of which would have been considered, and rightly so, discrimination.

I think the reaction they were looking for was government-funded research and treatment.

I think that's incredibly optimistic, especially examining an incredibly fatal and persistant communicable disease affecting an identifiable sub-segment of the population. Had the government become involved, Andrew Sullivan would have been living in a FEMA camp.

And I think such a response would have been more aggressive and more likely if it *hadn't* been affecting an identifiable sub-segment of the population...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Pardon my ignorance, but I fail to see how STDs and same sex marriage are related. Two separate issues as I see it.

As far as who has access to your medical/records person there are durable POAs and the like for that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:41 pm 
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I think he's correct in his assumption that had any other group been afflicted with a similar disease, we would have had quite a bit of treatment and cure research funding. One need only look at cancer research. Also, don't forget how societal perception changed after Magic Johnson contracted AIDS. That rather clearly shows AIDS was ignored under the auspices of being a faggot disease.

Moreover, given the government at the time, and the influence of such luminaries as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, AIDS was considered to be the final solution. I'm sure we don't have to look very far to find individuals who are disappointed that some gays survived.

Rori: That's rather the point. My mother has to specify durable power of attorney for anyone other than my father to have it. He gets it by default. They shouldn't have to specify durable power of attorney to give it to their life partners. Straight people don't.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Rynar wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
One of the problems I have with this:

"We knew that the federal government would refuse to react as they would have had this disease occurred anywhere but among homosexuals."

Is that anything the federal government would/could have done would have been accompanied by a wide scale quarentine at worst, and at best an edict not to engage in incredibly risky behavior (ie. don't let some dude plug you in the ***, and don't use IV drugs), both of which would have been considered, and rightly so, discrimination.

I think the reaction they were looking for was government-funded research and treatment.

I think that's incredibly optimistic, especially examining an incredibly fatal and persistant communicable disease affecting an identifiable sub-segment of the population. Had the government become involved, Andrew Sullivan would have been living in a FEMA camp.

And I think such a response would have been more aggressive and more likely if it *hadn't* been affecting an identifiable sub-segment of the population...

I'm visualizing Japanese internment camps. This would have worked the same way: "We've identified the carriers. Let's remove them to stop the spread of the infection, and isolate the disease carriers for treatment and research."

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Exactly. And it would've happened even sooner, and probably with more public support, if anybody were susceptible, not just the gays.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Imagine if AIDS could spread from eating cheesburgers or tacos....


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Imagine if AIDS could spread from eating cheesburgers or tacos....

No no no... That's how diabetes spreads.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:56 pm 
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But...isn't an HIV infection almost 100% preventable by not engaging in risky sex and drug behavior?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:12 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
But...isn't an HIV infection almost 100% preventable by not engaging in risky sex and drug behavior?

Outside of direct fluid exposure, resulting from poor medical practice or error, generally yes. Although it can be passed from an irresponsible person to an unwitting responsible person if they are decieved about their partner's life style.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
But...isn't an HIV infection almost 100% preventable by not engaging in risky sex and drug behavior?

Outside of direct fluid exposure, resulting from poor medical practice or error, generally yes. Although it can be passed from an irresponsible person to an unwitting responsible person if they are decieved about their partner's life style.

Also, the precise means of transmission, the level of contagiousness, effective means of prevention (i.e. condoms), etc. weren't clear for years, and even after those things became clear to the medical community, they weren't widely known or understood by the public because of the stigma. That's why one of the core goals of activist groups like Act Up was to push for greater education and publicity, particularly from the government and major media organizations.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Condoms are not an effective means of prevention in the community discussed in the OP, as they are far more likely to tear during anal intercourse as opposed to vaginal.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Problem: What constitutes "risky behavior"?

This is a vague term, which is generally used by someone trying to sell you something or push an agenda. When you hear "risky behavior" you start to think drug addicts having random anonymous sex. From there, it's easy to sell church-goers that AIDS is the wrath of God striking down the sinners.

Many years ago, I knew a young woman who had herpes. She had engaged in sex precisely one time. It just so happened that her partner was infected, and passed it along to her. The incident happened before I met her, so I don't know if he knew about it and lied, or was unaware himself. Hell, maybe she was lying to me. Maybe she was a rampaging slut who **** half of St. Louis. I only have her word to go on, after all. Anyway, she may have been naive and foolish, but was it risky behavior? Do any of us even have a right to judge that? She had unprotected sex with someone she trusted, and she's not the only woman that's ever done such a thing. Are there any women out there who have children through men they are no longer married to, or even men they never married in the first place?

I know a different woman who cheated on her husband and contracted herpes. While society frowns upon marital infidelity, and this woman would be considered a lying, cheating whore, her actions were a far cry from random anonymous sex. People who cheat on their spouse typically do it with one person, not with several. Her actions were disloyal and sleazy, but was it risky behavior? What about her husband, who she passed her infection along to? Was he engaged in risky behavior when he had unprotected sex with his wife?

What does risky sex actually mean?

I told two stories about herpes, not AIDS. Does that make a difference? Why? Why not?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Problem: What constitutes "risky behavior"?

This is a vague term, which is generally used by someone trying to sell you something or push an agenda. When you hear "risky behavior" you start to think drug addicts having random anonymous sex. From there, it's easy to sell church-goers that AIDS is the wrath of God striking down the sinners.

Many years ago, I knew a young woman who had herpes. She had engaged in sex precisely one time. It just so happened that her partner was infected, and passed it along to her. The incident happened before I met her, so I don't know if he knew about it and lied, or was unaware himself. Hell, maybe she was lying to me. Maybe she was a rampaging slut who **** half of St. Louis. I only have her word to go on, after all. Anyway, she may have been naive and foolish, but was it risky behavior? Do any of us even have a right to judge that? She had unprotected sex with someone she trusted, and she's not the only woman that's ever done such a thing. Are there any women out there who have children through men they are no longer married to, or even men they never married in the first place?

I know a different woman who cheated on her husband and contracted herpes. While society frowns upon marital infidelity, and this woman would be considered a lying, cheating whore, her actions were a far cry from random anonymous sex. People who cheat on their spouse typically do it with one person, not with several. Her actions were disloyal and sleazy, but was it risky behavior? What about her husband, who she passed her infection along to? Was he engaged in risky behavior when he had unprotected sex with his wife?

What does risky sex actually mean?

I told two stories about herpes, not AIDS. Does that make a difference? Why? Why not?

For the purposes to this discussion, IE. a discussion about the AIDS outbreak in the gay male community in the late 70's-mid 80's, I think "risky behavior" it pretty self-explanatory. Think about the specific behaviors that set that community apart from other communities during that time period, still not all that long removed from the sexual revolution. What comes to mind immediatly is dudes plugging, and getting plugged by, lots of other dudes, unprotected, in the ***. "Risky behavior" for the purposes of this discussion isn't a vague term at all. There's a reason AIDS was dubbed "the gay cancer", and while the term may be ugly, it certainly was apt.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Nothing's perfect, Kate. However if you wait until marriage and get tested first and both stay faithful yeah, but not everyone does that I guess.

Lots of strait people have AIDS. Homosexuality Is more taboo/less prevalent in most of Africa than it is here, but they have a huge problem with AIDS.

It's sad we are still dealing with this born strait and gay people. We know how this spreads and how to find it. I'm not saying we should lock people up, though.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Coro:

I'll indulge you, but I'm going to want some qualifiers.

Do you believe that all human activities run along a sliding scale, one end being "activities least likely to statistically cause an adverse outcome" and the other being "activities most likely to statistically cause an adverse outcome"?

If so, do you believe that the people in your example fall farther towards the "more statistically likely" or "less statistically likely" end of the risk spectrum than, say, a person in a completely monogamous long term relationship? Keep in mind, this isn't a question about morality, religion, or even normalized human behavior. It is about actuarial examinations of statistical outcomes.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


Last edited by Rynar on Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:16 pm 
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Also strait life partners who aren't married need POAs also

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