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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:25 am 
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Washington (CNN) -- The U.S. Supreme Court ruled largely in favor of the federal government Monday in a case involving Arizona's immigration law, but it upheld the most controversial provision involving police checks on people's immigration status while enforcing other laws.

In a decision sure to ripple across the political landscape in a presidential election year, the court's 5-3 ruling struck down key parts of the Arizona law.

"The national government has significant power to regulate immigration," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion, adding that "Arizona may have understandable frustrations with the problems caused by illegal immigration while that process continues, but the state may not pursue policies that undermined federal law."

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer on immigration ruling: We won

The majority concluded the federal government had the power to block SB1070, though the court upheld one of the most controversial parts of the bill -- a provision that lets police check a person's immigration status while enforcing other laws if "reasonable suspicion" exists that the person is in the United States illegally.
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In its ruling, the high court made clear the immigration status provision could still face future constitutional challenges depending on how the state enforces it.

The federal government challenged four provisions of the Arizona law that never were enforced, pending the legal ruling.

Provisions struck down included:

-- Authorizing police to arrest immigrants without warrant where "probable cause" exists that they committed any public offense making them removable from the country.

-- Making it a state crime for "unauthorized immigrants" to fail to carry registration papers and other government identification.

-- Forbidding those not authorized for employment in the United States to apply, solicit or perform work. That would include immigrants standing in a parking lot who "gesture or nod" their willingness to be employed.

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the minority, argued the court's ruling encroached on Arizona's sovereign powers.

"If securing its territory in this fashion is not within the power of Arizona, we should cease referring to it as a sovereign state," Scalia wrote in the dissent backed by Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas.

The majority included Kennedy, Chief Justice John Roberts, Justice Steven Breyer, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Justice Sonia Sotomayor.

Justice Elena Kagan did not hear the case. Before taking the bench last year, she had been involved in the administration's initial legal opposition to the law as solicitor general.

The Obama administration had argued immigration matters were strictly a federal function.

The ruling is likely to have widespread implications for other states that have or are considering similar laws.

Read the Supreme Court ruling

Fed up with illegal immigrants crossing from Mexico -- and what they say is the federal government's inability to stop it -- legislators in Arizona passed a tough immigration law. The federal government sued, saying that Arizona overreached.

At issue was whether states have any authority to step in to regulate immigration matters or whether that is the exclusive role of the federal government. In dry legal terms, this constitutional issue is known as pre-emption.

During an April hearing, Paul Clement, lawyer for Arizona, told the high court the federal government has long failed to control the problem, and that states have discretion to assist in enforcing immigration laws.

But the Obama administration's solicitor general, Donald Verrilli, strongly countered that assertion, saying immigration matters are under the federal government's exclusive authority and state "interference" would only make matters worse.
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"If, in fact, somebody who does not belong in this country is in Arizona, Arizona has no power?" Scalia asked. "What does sovereignty mean if it does not include the ability to defend your borders?"

Even the more liberal Sotomayor told the federal governments' lawyer that key parts of his arguments were "not selling very well."

Several other states followed Arizona's lead by passing laws meant to deter illegal immigrants. Similar laws are under challenge in lower courts in Georgia, Alabama, Utah, Indiana and South Carolina. Arizona's appeal is the first to reach the Supreme Court.

Lens on immigration: Adolescence deported

Arizona is the nation's most heavily traveled corridor for illegal immigration and smuggling.

Federal courts had blocked four elements of the state's Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act, known as SB 1070.

During the 70-minute arguments in April, Clement faced relatively little tough questioning from left-leaning members of the bench.

"There will be a significant number of people who will be detained at the stop, or in prison, for a significantly longer period of time" if the state law is allowed to be enforced, warned Breyer.

Ginsburg said the provision on carrying registration is especially problematic. "Congress enacted a complete registration scheme which the states cannot complement or impose even auxiliary regulations," she said. "We want the registration scheme to be wholly federal."

But the consistently tough questions were aimed at Verrilli from conservative members of the high court.

Even before the solicitor general began speaking midway through the argument, Roberts framed the debate away from what has become a major complaint about the law: that it would target mostly Hispanic people for scrutiny and detention.

"I'd like to clear up at the outset what it's not about," Roberts said. "No part of your argument has to do with racial or ethnic profiling, does it?" Verrilli readily agreed.

Later the chief justice raised more serious concerns. When enforcing other law, "the person is already stopped for some other reason. He's stopped for going 60 in a 20 (mph zone). He's stopped for drunk driving. So that decision to stop the individual has nothing to do with immigration law at all. All that has to do with immigration law is whether or not they can ask the federal government to find out if this person is illegal or not, and then leave it up to you," Roberts said to Verrilli. "It seems to me that the federal government just doesn't want to know who is here illegally or not."

Kennedy echoed the thought, suggesting the federal government is not doing enough on illegal immigration, which might give states discretion to intervene. Suppose, he offered, "the state of Arizona has a massive emergency with social disruption, economic disruption, residents leaving the state because of a flood of immigrants. Let's just assume those two things. Does that give the state of Arizona any powers or authority or legitimate concerns that any other state wouldn't have?"

Kennedy was echoing what the state had long been arguing, and he later suggested there is such authority.

Verrilli argued the law would hurt Washington's ability to carry out diplomatic relations with other nations, noting, "We have very significant issues on the border with Mexico."

"Well, can't you avoid that particular foreign relations problem by simply deporting these people?" Scalia asked. "Free them from the jails and send them back to the countries that are objecting. What's the problem with that?

"We have to enforce our laws in a manner that will please Mexico. Is that what you're saying?"

The Justice Department said Arizona's population of 2 million Latinos includes an estimated 400,000 there illegally, and 60% to 70% of deportations or "removals" involve Mexican nationals.

The Pew Hispanic Center this week released a report in April that found that Mexican immigration to the United States has come to a standstill.

The economic downturn in the United States and better conditions in Mexico, along with deportations and other enforcement, has led many to return to Mexico.

However, the debate continues as more than 10 million unauthorized immigrants -- from Mexico and other countries -- continue to live in the United States.

Even if immigration has slowed to lows not seen in decades, proponents of tough immigration laws want to beef up enforcement ahead of any future pressures.

The administration, backed by a variety of immigrant and civil rights groups, says allowing such discretionary state authority would hurt relations between the United States and other countries, disrupt existing cooperative efforts and unfairly target legal immigrants.

The legislation has a variety of supporters and detractors.

Republican lawmakers, outspoken Maricopa County, Arizona, Sheriff Joe Arpaio and various state governments were among those who filed briefs supporting the law. The Mexican government, the Anti-Defamation League, the American Immigration Lawyers Association and the city of Tucson, Arizona, are among those supporting the Justice Department's side.

The outcome of the Arizona appeal could set important precedent on similar laws pending across the country.

The case is Arizona v. U.S. (11-182) and is to be the last argued before the high court this term.


I'm surprised - I expected this to go the other way.

I definitely agree that matters of immigration and citizenship are the responsibility of the Federal Government. However, the legality of the immigrants is not really in question. This bill only applied to illegals (though it arguably could bother the crap out of legal latinos). It boils down to enforcement. In the State's view, it's not being enforced adequately and they can demonstrate hardship as a result. It's an interesting dilemma.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:36 am 
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I think the Arizona DA should start filing damage claims against the Obama administration for willful negligence. Not the US Government, but Obama and his officers themselves. He specfically directed Holder to not enforce certain laws.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:40 am 
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Yeah, I'm especially surprised given the tone and nature of Kennedy and Roberts' questions. I don't think they were answered so well as to make sense in swaying those two.

Hannibal, that would be awesome.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Wait... so if they were struck down... how is this a "win" for AZ?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Who's calling it a win for AZ? If anyone is doing that, it's spin. They got to keep the provision that allows them to check the status of people they have already arrested. That's not very controversial.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Who's calling it a win for AZ? If anyone is doing that, it's spin. They got to keep the provision that allows them to check the status of people they have already arrested. That's not very controversial.


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Arizona Governor Jan Brewer on immigration ruling: We won


That's pretty clear right there.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Because what he really wanted was for cops to be able to check ID during traffic stops?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Because what he really wanted was for cops to be able to check ID during traffic stops?


I'd be ok with that. But then, I live in the Southwest and hate all mexicans or something.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:50 pm 
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It's ok, The Obama administration has effectively revoked all ICE cooperation with AZ Law enforcement
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2012/06/ ... n-arizona/
They have also instructed ICE not to take calls from Az Law enforcement.

These are the people sworn to uphold the constitution and enforce laws.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:04 pm 
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OK so the federal government has by virtue of inaction said they aren't going to perform their duty. Now that same federal government has used the law to prevent the states from doing it.

Ill give it a month before we start seeing stories of dead illegals left in the weeds. If there is a percieved absence in law, something will fill it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:24 pm 
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The Border Patrol and ICE are not gone from Arizona. You're not going to see large numbers of illegals making their initial entry into the country left out in the desert.

Regular local, county, and state police officers don't usually catch aliens as they cross the river or trek through the desert as they first enter the country. That's the job of Border Patrol. It requires different skills and equipment from regular everyday police work and if the police did do that, there wouldn't be police available for much of anything else as it's highly time and manpower intensive.

Where police officers normally come into contact with illegal immigrants is when they stop a vehicle or go to a call or something like that and encounter them as they would encounter anyone else. In this case, what Arizona wants their cops to do is check the immigration status of people they would be interacting with anyhow. These are people who are usually past the stage of the initial crossing the river or the desert and have made it to a stash house and are getting smuggle further into the country, or else illegals who have arrived at a destination and begun doing whatever it is that they do once here.

Incidentally, all the concern over "racial profiling" is a total red herring. If you live in the border area, much less work as a law enforcement officer, you can tell just by talking to someone if they are an American or not, and it's really pretty easy to tell if they're Mexican or from some other country as well. Arizona police are not likely to think every Hispanic person is an illegal, especially since most of the police are probably Hispanic and speak Spanish themselves. It's a completely silly concern that's seized on either by people who don't want immigration law enforced, or by people who have never been to the border area and think for some reason it's a bunch of white people living north of the border.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:49 pm 
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Leshani wrote:
It's ok, The Obama administration has effectively revoked all ICE cooperation with AZ Law enforcement
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2012/06/ ... n-arizona/
They have also instructed ICE not to take calls from Az Law enforcement.

These are the people sworn to uphold the constitution and enforce laws.


They revoked the street-level agreements. AZ law enforcement can still check the immigration status of people actually arrested, they just can't check the status of everyone they happen to briefly detain.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:13 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Leshani wrote:
It's ok, The Obama administration has effectively revoked all ICE cooperation with AZ Law enforcement
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2012/06/ ... n-arizona/
They have also instructed ICE not to take calls from Az Law enforcement.

These are the people sworn to uphold the constitution and enforce laws.


They revoked the street-level agreements. AZ law enforcement can still check the immigration status of people actually arrested, they just can't check the status of everyone they happen to briefly detain.


And they totally should be able to check immigration status. Its BS that they can't.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:05 am 
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DE correct me if I'm wrong..
I was always told that a traffic stop is an "arrest" if a ticket is written. You sign the ticket and that is your "bail" (meaning you either show up in court or plead guilty by paying the fine. So presumably they could still check status in these cases?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 am 
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Leshani wrote:
It's ok, The Obama administration has effectively revoked all ICE cooperation with AZ Law enforcement
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2012/06/ ... n-arizona/
They have also instructed ICE not to take calls from Az Law enforcement.

These are the people sworn to uphold the constitution and enforce laws.

If you read further into that, it appears ICE is phasing out enforecement of immigration laws nationwide:

Quote:
The federal agency also announced the nationwide suspension of the program, saying it would no longer sign new agreements with state and local law enforcement agencies.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:24 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
DE correct me if I'm wrong..
I was always told that a traffic stop is an "arrest" if a ticket is written. You sign the ticket and that is your "bail" (meaning you either show up in court or plead guilty by paying the fine. So presumably they could still check status in these cases?


Well, if you are stopped in a traffic stop, then you already have to show proof of immigration status. A drivers license is all the proof you need, and you already have to have one to drive, or face arrest.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:39 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
If you live in the border area, much less work as a law enforcement officer, you can tell just by talking to someone if they are an American or not, and it's really pretty easy to tell if they're Mexican or from some other country as well.


Riiiiiight. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:40 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
If you live in the border area, much less work as a law enforcement officer, you can tell just by talking to someone if they are an American or not, and it's really pretty easy to tell if they're Mexican or from some other country as well.


Riiiiiight. :roll:



Says the guy from lily white way up North Minnosota...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:43 am 
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You should educate yourself more about demographics Nitefox, you'd sound less like a retard.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:12 am 
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Aizle wrote:
You should educate yourself more about demographics Nitefox, you'd sound less like a retard.


Retard? From the oh so sensitive lib? How quaint.


Anyway, don't be so butthurt.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
You should educate yourself more about demographics Nitefox, you'd sound less like a retard.



Anyway, hopefully you've smirked long enough...but what is your original point? Instead of a sarcastic and oh so informative "riiiiight" :roll:, do you have more to add than that? What is it you disagree with? Can you prove DE is wrong in what he said? Have you spent a lot of time close to the southern border? Do you deal with Canadians coming across the border in large numbers similar to what the southern border states have to deal with? If you are done getting the sand out of your vagina, please explain your dismissal of DE's statement.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:18 pm 
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These arguments always wind up focusing on things like profiling by law enforcement, economic impact of illegal immigrants, how much of an improvement illegally immigrating brings to those who do it vs how little their individual impact hurts the country, etc.

Those are all very real issues. They deserve debate, and a lot can be learned by doing so.

...why, though, do I rarely hear people clamor to change the actual laws?

The stereotypical liberal side to the issue seems to boil down to something like "it improves their lives greatly and they don't have this net negative impact people keep bringing up, so stop being selfish and evil and give up pursuing it" or possibly just "stop trying to deny people good things out of racism". The underlying message is that we should just turn our heads and allow it to happen... which is more or less the course the country has taken, at least in the big picture. The argument, again, seems to me that it's morally the right thing to do and that we really aren't giving up much (if anything) to improve the lives of thousands of people greatly.

That is a real issue, too, and deserves debate at some point as well.

Yet still they ignore the laws.

To me, that's a bigger issue than immigration's impact on the economy or whatever else. I could go into a whole long rant about the purpose of law or the fairness of having a reliable justice system that people can count on (i.e. not waking up tomorrow to find that a given law that protects you suddenly is ignored for whatever reason) but that would be a long post indeed.

I mean, isn't the whole purpose of having a fluid system of legislation such that if an existing law becomes intolerable to the people who live under it, the law gets changed to match? And if there isn't sufficient support to overturn (through whatever means) the existing law, then the current law stays in effect?

When did it become right to pick and choose?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
If you are done getting the sand out of your vagina, please explain your dismissal of DE's statement.

Do you think "vague standards for probable cause and reasonable suspicion aren't a problem because cops can tell who the bad guys are just by looking at them" would be even remotely acceptable here if the likely targets were white?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:24 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:33 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
If you are done getting the sand out of your vagina, please explain your dismissal of DE's statement.

Do you think "vague standards for probable cause and reasonable suspicion aren't a problem because cops can tell who the bad guys are just by looking at them" would be even remotely acceptable here if the likely targets were white?



See you guys are always hung up on race and profiling and stereotyping and it keeps you from seeing things from common sense "duh" kind of way. If we had this same problem, yet it was Canadians...I would have zero problem with being asked to show my drivers license in the natural course of some stop by the police. It's the same reason I don't go flying off the handle when they profile the newest serial killer.

Let's be blunt, the folks coming in illegally from Mexico are by and large, brown. It doesn't make much sense to stop as many people who look like you RD or look like Aizle as does to stop folks who look like George Lopez.

If for some reason we have a massive influx of Germans trying to get into the states via Mississippi, I'm not getting bent out of shape if Barney asks to see my ID because my wife was speeding or ran a red light.

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