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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:00 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
contemporaneous


I think you're just trying to get laid by Darryl Hannah.

/obscure movie reference


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Related to the case, but not the current discussion...

Does the amount of money available to a defendant have anything to do with the amount that bail should be set?

I don't understand how it should affect the bail amount. I always figured the bail was contingent on whether or not the defendant is a flight risk and/or a danger to society while awaiting trial.

Should the amount of donations that GZ had received have anything to do with setting bail? Obviously, it has because bail was revoked and he is back in custody. His lawyer is asking for another bond to be set.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Bail is essentially collateral to incentivize you to show up in court - don't show up and you lose the money you posted as bail. The richer the defendant, the higher the bail needs to be for such a forfeiture to actually sting and thus provide the requisite incentive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
I don't understand how it should affect the bail amount. I always figured the bail was contingent on whether or not the defendant is a flight risk and/or a danger to society while awaiting trial.


No point in charging bail at all if it's just peanuts to the defendant.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:39 pm 
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RD and Arathain:

Yup, that makes plenty of sense. Didn't think of it that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Jeebus.... :(


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:07 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
sufficient to clearly change Zimmerman's status from aggressor/instigator to victim.


Legally, Zimmerman never had "aggressor" status. Following is insufficient for that, under Florida law anyways. Maybe it's different elsewhere, I dunno.

It seems clear the State is going to try and argue that, but I don't see how it can stick. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/24/122557/873 covers why in some detail (and I borrowed a bit of her analysis here already), using both statute and case law.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:09 pm 
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Just realized something...

Ask a lawyer:
RangerDave wrote:
Bail is essentially collateral to incentivize you to show up in court - don't show up and you lose the money you posted as bail.
The richer the defendant, the higher the bail needs to be for such a forfeiture to actually sting and thus provide the requisite incentive.

Ask an engineer:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
No point in charging bail at all if it's just peanuts to the defendant.

:D


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:09 pm 
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And since Zimmerman is in worse financial shape now than the first bond hearing, there's no reason for it to be raised.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:33 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Assuming it's true that Martin doubled-back after Zimmerman lost sight of him, there was a verbal exchange prior to the fight, and Martin threw the first punch (all of which seems likely, given what we know), then it's doubtful Martin could have relied on a self-defense excuse for his actions. However, just because Martin wouldn't qualify for self-defense doesn't mean Zimmerman does. Even if we assume that everything played out exactly as Zimmerman says it did, there's a reasonable argument to be made that he provoked the violence by following Martin (i.e. by creating a dangerous situation in which Martin reasonably feared for his own safety), in which case, he'd probably lose the ability to claim self-defense in most states. However, as Coren points out, Florida's statute allows even the instigator to claim self-defense if he's about to suffer death or great bodily harm and he's exhausted every other means of escape. That's a big part of what makes Florida's law so controversial - it allows a person to literally attack someone and then, if the actual victim fights back and starts winning , for the actual attacker to then kill the victim and claim self-defense. It's just a poorly written statute.


The law does not allow an aggressor to kill a victim because the victim is winning; it allows an aggressor to kill a victim who is using force that A) is likely to result in death or bodily harm and B) is not necessary to repel the aggressor in the first place. It's a very well-written statute for that reason.

A defender should not be able to use any amount of force they want to defend themselves, and trying to say "well yes but..." and then come up with all kinds of legal consequences that won't matter at all to e dead person.

There's 2 basic principles: A person should be able to defend themselves against attack without waiting for the police to arrive, and a person should not be able to use self defense to kill or maim an attacker and then rely on a roll of the dice in court hoping to get off, particularly if they're the sort of person that can appeal to jury sympathy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:32 pm 
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http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/geo ... 5?tw_p=twt

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Meh, polygraph machines are worthless. The last time I took one the test conductor started getting pissed at me when the machine couldn't tell I was lying on the control "lie on these questions" questions. He kept telling me to "lie harder", whatever that means...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Timmit wrote:
Meh, polygraph machines are worthless. The last time I took one the test conductor started getting pissed at me when the machine couldn't tell I was lying on the control "lie on these questions" questions. He kept telling me to "lie harder", whatever that means...

It means he wanted you to watch the sequel to Lie Hard, obviously.

Thank goodness you didn't have to go all the way through Lie Hard With a Vengeance and Live Free or Lie Hard.

#overextendedjoke

#wasntfunnyinthefirstplace

#committedtoitnowcantstop


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:04 pm 
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#itsokigiggled.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Bit of a tangent that I found amusing.

Apparently something like 11 federal investigators were sent to try and find evidence that this was a hate crime. One of them asked around at the shop where Zimmerman bought the weapon fishing for racist remarks, and the response was something like:

“Didn't the guy have a Sunday school in his house for minority kids?”


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:24 am 
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Coren wrote:
Bit of a tangent that I found amusing.

Apparently something like 11 federal investigators were sent to try and find evidence that this was a hate crime. One of them asked around at the shop where Zimmerman bought the weapon fishing for racist remarks, and the response was something like:

“Didn't the guy have a Sunday school in his house for minority kids?”

Radical religious right!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:17 am 
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Is there any case law that indicates someone walking in the same direction as someone else is an indicator of immedeate future violence?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:59 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Just realized something...

Ask a lawyer:
RangerDave wrote:
Bail is essentially collateral to incentivize you to show up in court - don't show up and you lose the money you posted as bail.
The richer the defendant, the higher the bail needs to be for such a forfeiture to actually sting and thus provide the requisite incentive.

Ask an engineer:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
No point in charging bail at all if it's just peanuts to the defendant.

:D


There's a reason everyone hates lawyers.... :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:32 am 
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Link

Spoiler:
Quote:
Witnesses tell FBI that George Zimmerman is no racist
By Ashley Hayes, CNN
updated 1:42 PM EDT, Thu July 12, 2012

Trayvon Martin's family and supporters say George Zimmerman racially profiled the teen before the shooting.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Multiple witnesses tell federal authorities that George Zimmerman is not racist
NEW: A co-worker says Zimmerman was "devastated" after Trayvon Martin's shooting
Zimmerman is accused of second-degree murder
(CNN) -- George Zimmerman, charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, had a "little hero complex" but was not a racist, a Sanford, Florida, homicide investigator told federal agents, according to reports released Thursday.
In an interview with FBI agents in March, investigator Chris Serino told authorities he "believed that Zimmerman's actions were not based on Martin's skin color, rather based on his attire, the total circumstances of the encounter and the previous burglary suspects in the community," according to an FBI report.
The reports and other information in the second-degree murder case against Zimmerman were released Thursday by Special Prosecutor Angela Corey to Zimmerman's attorney.
The U.S. Department of Justice took up a civil rights investigation following allegations that race played a part in the killing of Martin, 17, in February in a gated community in Sanford, Florida. The reports released Thursday do not draw conclusions in that investigation.

Martin's family and supporters say Zimmerman racially profiled the teen, describing him as "suspicious" during a 911 call and ignoring a police dispatcher's request that he not follow him.
The 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer has said he killed Martin in self-defense, saying the teen punched him and slammed his head into a sidewalk before the shooting, according to family members and police.
Trayvon Martin memorial removed but preserved
Among the evidence released Thursday are details about federal interviews with more than 30 people, including key members of the Sanford Police Department and Zimmerman's neighbors and co-workers.
In his interview, Serino explained to the FBI agents that African-American gangs in the community "typically dressed in black and wore hoodies," the report said.
"Serino believes that when Zimmerman saw Martin in a hoody (sic), Zimmerman took it upon himself to view Martin as acting suspicious," the report said. "Serino described Zimmerman as overzealous and as having 'a little hero complex,' but not as a racist. Serino explained that on numerous occasions he asked Zimmerman specifically if he followed Martin based on his skin color and Zimmerman never admitted to this fact."
In June, Sanford police said Serino had "voluntarily" asked to be moved from detective to patrol officer. At the time, police Sgt. David Morgenstern said that the move was not a demotion and that he did not know why Serino made the request.
Many of Zimmerman's neighbors, whose identities are redacted, told federal agents they did not know him. And those who did have nothing derogatory to say about him.
Similarly, interviewed co-workers are complimentary of Zimmerman. Several noted an incident in which a lock Zimmerman used to attach his orthopedic chair to his desk was cut, but said he handled it appropriately and professionally.
One apparent co-worker, whose identity was redacted, told agents she saw Zimmerman as he was waiting to speak to human resources the Monday after the shooting and noticed his injuries. The woman told agents that Zimmerman was "absolutely emotionally devastated."
A timeline of events
Another FBI report documents a March 30 interview with a store owner who contacted authorities to say Zimmerman had contacted him about two weeks earlier "in reference to purchasing a new firearm." Zimmerman told the owner, whose identity was redacted, that "his life is in danger and he needs more guns," the report said. It was unclear from the report whether Zimmerman purchased the firearm.
The evidence also included audio of conversations between 911 dispatchers and Sanford police.
The dispatcher tells officers to look for a "black male, late teens, wearing a dark gray hoodie and sweatpants, walking around," adding that the youth was last seen running toward the back of the neighborhood.
Then, says the dispatcher, "There's screaming and a gunshot, are you responding?" Dispatchers later tell responding officers they have received a total of four calls regarding the incident. "Someone's laying in the backyard," a dispatcher says.
"I need somebody ASAP," an officer says on the recording. "I've got one down with a gunshot wound, and I've got one secure."
Also released were reports on interviews with agents of the Florida Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco, who arrested Zimmerman in 2005 on suspicion of battery against a law enforcement officer and obstruction of justice. The agents told authorities that Zimmerman did not use racial slurs or discriminatory language during the incident, the reports said.
The charges against Zimmerman, who was accused of pushing an undercover agent, were later dropped after he entered a pretrial diversion program and completed an anger management class.
A report on an interview with Zimmerman's ex-fiance was also released. The woman told authorities that while she and Zimmerman had physical altercations and at one point filed restraining orders against one another, she never saw Zimmerman exhibit any other violence or exhibit any racial bias.
Additionally, details about Zimmerman's MySpace account, surveillance video and e-mails between Zimmerman and ousted Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee were released as part of the evidence handover.
On the MySpace account in the name of "Joe G.," Zimmerman, a white Hispanic, recalls moving from Manassas, Virginia, saying, "I don't miss driving around scared to hit Mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft *** wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they ain't around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) don't make you a man in my book. Working 96 hours to get a decent pay check, getting knifes pulled on you by every Mexican you run into."
Also released were copies of the e-mails between Zimmerman and Lee before the shooting regarding the neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman, in the e-mails, notes there has been a "spike in robberies and home invasions in the neighborhood within the past two months."
He adds that he has not had a positive view of Sanford police because of the "Sherman Ware incident." Ware, a black homeless man, was beaten by a Sanford police lieutenant's son. Zimmerman was critical of police handling of the case and reportedly worked on Ware's behalf.
Zimmerman was released on $1 million bond last week. An initial bond of $150,000 was revoked last month after a judge learned that Zimmerman and his wife failed to disclose more than $150,000 in donations from the public.
Shooting leaves community divided


Quote:
Among the evidence released Thursday are details about federal interviews with more than 30 people, including key members of the Sanford Police Department and Zimmerman's neighbors and co-workers.
In his interview, Serino explained to the FBI agents that African-American gangs in the community "typically dressed in black and wore hoodies," the report said.
"Serino believes that when Zimmerman saw Martin in a hoody (sic), Zimmerman took it upon himself to view Martin as acting suspicious," the report said. "Serino described Zimmerman as overzealous and as having 'a little hero complex,' but not as a racist. Serino explained that on numerous occasions he asked Zimmerman specifically if he followed Martin based on his skin color and Zimmerman never admitted to this fact."


So it's coming out that Zimmerman may have taken his role as a neighborhood watchmen a little far, but he was indeed not a racist.

Gee, who has been saying that all along.

Eff you, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for sticking your noses into something that should have been none of your business. Sad that Trayvon lost his life and his family has to live with that, but equally sad that Zimmerman had to endure the death threats and the upheaval of his life due to media scrutiny and public perception that he was a racist white man who shot an innocent, angelic black youth.

The only racists involved in this case are TM's family and their idiot lawyer Benjamin Crump.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:53 am 
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Yeah, I got a kick reading through the evidence dump yesterday.

Also significant, the lead investigator (Serino) that "recommended manslaughter charges" at the beginning, admitted to FBI that he didn't think there was enough evidence to charge George, but 3 other officers pressured him to make an arrest. 2 of those officers were black and the 3rd was married to a black.


But yeah. Witness statements back up George's story, the forensics and evidence support George's story, there seems to be zero evidence to refute the self defense claim, and the lead investigator didn't even think there was evidence for probable cause, so it's astounding that this is even still in the courts IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:11 am 
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Foamy wrote:
Sad that Trayvon lost his life and his family has to live with that, but equally sad that Zimmerman had to endure the death threats and the upheaval of his life due to media scrutiny and public perception that he was a racist....

Actually, no; those things are not equally sad.

Foamy wrote:
Article wrote:
So it's coming out that Zimmerman may have taken his role as a neighborhood watchmen a little far, but he was indeed not a racist.

Again, you're defining racism too narrowly. Serino's statement, which you seem to think exhonorates Zimmerman of the racism charge, is actually an example of racism. It's saying that Zimmerman saw a black guy in a hoodie, and deemed that suspicious because other black guys in hoodies are criminals. So, if Martin had been a white guy in a hoodie, Zimmerman wouldn't have been suspicious, and Martin would still be alive. How is that not racism?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:16 am 
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RD: If the police put out an ABP on a black guy in a hoodie and you report seeing a black guy in a hoodie is that a racist action?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:28 am 
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RangerDave:

All quotes from the article:

Quote:
One apparent co-worker, whose identity was redacted, told agents she saw Zimmerman as he was waiting to speak to human resources the Monday after the shooting and noticed his injuries. The woman told agents that Zimmerman was "absolutely emotionally devastated."


Absolutely emotionally devastated as observed by one of Z's coworkers after the shooting. Would a racist who just got away with murdering a n***er be seeking counselling for his emotional devastation? Doesn't sound racist to me.

Quote:
Also released were copies of the e-mails between Zimmerman and Lee before the shooting regarding the neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman, in the e-mails, notes there has been a "spike in robberies and home invasions in the neighborhood within the past two months."


Evidence of GZ's reasoning for being suspicious of a lone person in the gated community in the dark on a rainy night. Still doesn't appear racist.

Quote:
"Serino believes that when Zimmerman saw Martin in a hoody (sic), Zimmerman took it upon himself to view Martin as acting suspicious," the report said. "Serino described Zimmerman as overzealous and as having 'a little hero complex,' but not as a racist. Serino explained that on numerous occasions he asked Zimmerman specifically if he followed Martin based on his skin color and Zimmerman never admitted to this fact."


Pursuant to the previous quote, more evidence that Z's actions were based on his suspicion due to circumstance, again not because "Hey it's a black guy in my 'hood!" I am still struggling to believe Z was motivated by race.

Quote:
He adds that he has not had a positive view of Sanford police because of the "Sherman Ware incident." Ware, a black homeless man, was beaten by a Sanford police lieutenant's son. Zimmerman was critical of police handling of the case and reportedly worked on Ware's behalf.


Z spoke out against the police due to their handling of an incident with a homeless, black man.

Maybe your definition of racism differs from mine, but I don't think a person who hates black people simply because they are black would speak out against the police who beat up on a BLACK person.

What more do you need to see to even START to consider that GZ was not acting based on race. He was overly suspicious due to numerous robberies and break-ins in the past two months (See first quote) not because TM was black. How much more evidence has to come out? You believe it because TM's family, Benjamin Crump, the Revs. Jackson and Sharpton say so? Why do you want to believe so hard that Zimmerman is a racist?

RangerDave wrote:
Again, you're defining racism too narrowly. Serino's statement, which you seem to think exhonorates Zimmerman of the racism charge, is actually an example of racism. It's saying that Zimmerman saw a black guy in a hoodie, and deemed that suspicious because other black guys in hoodies are criminals. So, if Martin had been a white guy in a hoodie, Zimmerman wouldn't have been suspicious, and Martin would still be alive. How is that not racism?


Zimmerman never identified the person he was following as black until prompted, so no it does not say he saw "A black guy in a hoodie" as you would like to believe.

Also, if it had been a white guy in a hoodie under the EXACT circumstances, I am fairly certain GZ would have been equally suspicious.

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Last edited by Foamy on Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:36 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
RD: If the police put out an ABP on a black guy in a hoodie and you report seeing a black guy in a hoodie is that a racist action?

I'm not sure what putting out an APB means, exactly. Are we talking about something relatively specific to time and place, like: "Attention all units. Be advised that suspect is an African-American male wearing a hoodie. Suspect was last seen in the vicinity of 8th and Washington 5 minutes ago."? In that case, if you see an African-American male wearing a hoodie walking a couple blocks away at that particular time, then it's probably reasonable and non-racist to report it. On the other hand, if the APB is just a general statement that suspect is a black guy in a hoodie, and you report any random black guy wearing a hoodie that you see, with no connection to time and place or other reason to be suspicious....then yeah, that's racist (though, to be honest, I think "stupid" would be a bettor word for it!).

The APB analogy doesn't really apply here, though, since there was no proximate crime triggering an alert. There had been break-ins in the recent past, but nothing to indicate there was a criminal in the area at that particular time.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:05 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
RD: If the police put out an ABP on a black guy in a hoodie and you report seeing a black guy in a hoodie is that a racist action?

I'm not sure what putting out an APB means, exactly. Are we talking about something relatively specific to time and place, like: "Attention all units. Be advised that suspect is an African-American male wearing a hoodie. Suspect was last seen in the vicinity of 8th and Washington 5 minutes ago."? In that case, if you see an African-American male wearing a hoodie walking a couple blocks away at that particular time, then it's probably reasonable and non-racist to report it. On the other hand, if the APB is just a general statement that suspect is a black guy in a hoodie, and you report any random black guy wearing a hoodie that you see, with no connection to time and place or other reason to be suspicious....then yeah, that's racist (though, to be honest, I think "stupid" would be a bettor word for it!).

The APB analogy doesn't really apply here, though, since there was no proximate crime triggering an alert. There had been break-ins in the recent past, but nothing to indicate there was a criminal in the area at that particular time.


Quote:
Serino explained to the FBI agents that African-American gangs in the community "typically dressed in black and wore hoodies," the report said.
"Serino believes that when Zimmerman saw Martin in a hoody (sic), Zimmerman took it upon himself to view Martin as acting suspicious," the report said.

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