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Will Obamacare be overturned by the SCOTUS?
The Supreme Court will completely overturn Obamacare 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
The SC will only overturn the individual mandate 52%  52%  [ 11 ]
The SC will leave the bill intact. 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
Will what be overturned by who? 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 21
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Which is exactly how it used to be with private doctors when they could interact directly with patients without governmental interference and 3rd parties.

Imagine if you had to contract through a series of paperwork to get your car repaired and the same in return for them to get payment.

Oil changes would be 400 bucks.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Ok simply have as part of being insured the issuance of a medical id bracelet or chain such as dogtags. Note that coverage may be delayed or at increased cost if emergency services are rendered without it.

Easily covered in a contract - the costs of treating emergency deliveries like this can be assumed by the charges to those who show up and are covered but without ID. This would make it such a stiff penalty that most would assure their ID to be present. Also a quick biometric (eye and fignerprints) could be taken, insurance servers queried and id established on the way to the hospital as a matter of procedure.

Tons of market solutions to this problem - there are two.


How about instead of forcing me to either be logged into a database or have to carry around "papers" to identify that I paid for a service, we tattoo "doesn't have health insurance" to your forehead? That's a market solution.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Except you included the word force which means its not market. Also to whom would you contract to have that tattoo done if you aren't contracted to health insurance?

You're making a lot of assumptions - some of which are contradictory.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:58 am 
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For a country with much bigger issues, you guys sure like to haggle over a small thing like carrying an ID. :psyduck:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:23 am 
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So the answer to the original post question is...

No. No it will not.

CNN: Supreme Court upholds entire health care reform law


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:32 am 
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Wow, this is really surprising on two fronts - first, that it was Roberts rather than Kennedy who provided the 5th vote to uphold the law, and second, that it was upheld on the basis of Congress' taxing power, not its Commerce Clause power. Going to be some very interesting legal analysis in the coming days/weeks.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:34 am 
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Yeah, those two things jumped out at me too.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:38 am 
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I think this causes more problems for Obama, not less. This essentially makes the rift between liberal and conservative a Grand Canyon rather than a divide.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:44 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... g-ofjXrXio


But in 2009, Obama said it wasn't a tax...


And a good point I heard on the radio just a few ago...

Most folks who can't afford insurance are also in the same group that don't pay any taxes anyway. So how are you going to tax folks you have already deemed untaxable?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:24 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
And a good point I heard on the radio just a few ago...

Most folks who can't afford insurance are also in the same group that don't pay any taxes anyway. So how are you going to tax folks you have already deemed untaxable?


Don't worry. They'll find a way to make the rest of us pay for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:50 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Wow, this is really surprising on two fronts - first, that it was Roberts rather than Kennedy who provided the 5th vote to uphold the law, and second, that it was upheld on the basis of Congress' taxing power, not its Commerce Clause power. Going to be some very interesting legal analysis in the coming days/weeks.

Another interesting aspect of this is the ruling on the Medicaid expansion that was part of the ACA:

SCOTUSblog wrote:
The Court’s decision on the constitutionality of the Medicaid expansion is divided and complicated. The bottom line is that: (1) Congress acted constitutionally in offering states funds to expand coverage to millions of new individuals; (2) So states can agree to expand coverage in exchange for those new funds; (3) If the state accepts the expansion funds, it must obey by the new rules and expand coverage; (4) but a state can refuse to participate in the expansion without losing all of its Medicaid funds; instead the state will have the option of continue the its current, unexpanded plan as is.

The votes for this outcome are divided among several opinions. Three Justices – the Chief, Justice Kagan, and Justice Breyer – took the position that depriving a state of all of its Medicaid funding for refusing to agree to the new expansion would exceed Congress’s power under the Spending Clause. Although Congress may attach conditions to federal funds, they concluded, it may not coerce states into accepting those conditions. And in this case, taking away all the states’ funds for the entirety of its Medicaid program just because it disagreed with a piece of the program would be coercive.

As Jonathan Adler at the Volokh Conspiracy notes:

Adler wrote:
While the holding here may not go beyond the limits articulated in South Dakota v. Dole, the Supreme Court has not limited the exercise of the spending power to impose conditions on states since the New Deal and, again, seven justices endorsed this result. Going forward, I expect this portion of the opinion to have the greatest practical impact. In fact, I can think of some federal laws, including portions of the Clean Air Act, that are likely to be challenged on these grounds.

Lots of meat in this decision.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:02 am 
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My initial reaction is this is a good decision. It is a tax, Congress can tax. People have to decide if they want this or not. Not in the abstract, but do they want to pay for it.

Commerce clause argument always seemed like bullshit to me. A tax on the other hand, at least you're calling it what it is. A huge tax during a recession, in return for which you get to stay on your mom's insurance til you're 26 and some other stuff ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:04 am 
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Hahahaha! Cable news covering itself in glory this morning:



Soooo, painful. I can't help but feel sorry for them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Romney looking any tastier to anyone today?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Oh 24-hour news...

I can't even feel embarrassment for them. It's what we get if we want to-the-second breaking news. I always watch/listen/read with skepticism for some amount of time before going along with anything they say beyond the most basic and simple of facts.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:12 pm 
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I'm not particularly pleased, but after reading the opinions, I don't think their reasoning was too far off.

That, and I think that the official "You can keep the mandate IF it's a TAX" might be as hard for Obama as if it had been struck down. Because now it has to be viewed as a new tax for it to be kept in play.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Romney looking any tastier to anyone today?

Uh...not to be obtuse, but...why would he?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Because if he gets elected you can expect an executive order getting rid of health care for millions of people.

Oh, and he'll save you a few bucks each year.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Yeah, Nephyr. Considering how much emphasis there was on "this isn't a tax" to get it passed without committing political suicide, if the people who said that aren't held to the fire, I weep for our democracy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Because if he gets elected you can expect an executive order getting rid of health care for millions of people.

Oh, and he'll save you a few bucks each year.

I guess I can understand being all "GRRRR! Coverage for poor people!" at the health care reform (not really, but we'll roll with the idea for now); what I can't understand is if you are mad about it, suddenly throwing your weight behind the guy who started the ball rolling in the first place. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:28 pm 
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I look forward to the fact that now the goverment can tax you for anything. Seriously, this is a tax FOR NOT BUYING SOMETHING. It's a No-sales tax.

Don't have a car that gets over 30mpg? Tax. Overweight? Tax. Used more than 50 gig on your ISP for a month? Tax.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Post hyperbole on the internet? Tax.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:32 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Lenas wrote:
Because if he gets elected you can expect an executive order getting rid of health care for millions of people.

Oh, and he'll save you a few bucks each year.

I guess I can understand being all "GRRRR! Coverage for poor people!" at the health care reform (not really, but we'll roll with the idea for now); what I can't understand is if you are mad about it, suddenly throwing your weight behind the guy who started the ball rolling in the first place. :D



I didn't like that about him either at first but after thinking about it I have to give him this. First, it was for his state. It's what the state wanted. I'm all for states rights. If a state wants to make a law that you have to wear pink shoes every monday and the majority of the folks living there support it, fine. I get to at least move if I don't like it. Secondly, he was on record saying that this wouldn't work on a national level.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:32 pm 
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The King
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Lenas wrote:
Post hyperbole on the internet? Tax.



Being a smartass. Tax.


Laugh all you want but my point still stands. You will be taxed for not buying something. If the government can get away with taxing you for not doing something, what's to stop them from taxing you for other things? I mean ****, the NY Mayor? is already wanting to tax people for getting more soda than he thinks you should get.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:38 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
I look forward to the fact that now the goverment can tax you for anything. Seriously, this is a tax FOR NOT BUYING SOMETHING. It's a No-sales tax.

Don't have a car that gets over 30mpg? Tax. Overweight? Tax. Used more than 50 gig on your ISP for a month? Tax.


If MD passes the extension of sales tax to services, I'll have to pay taxes to have my taxes prepared.


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