The Glade 4.0

I'll willingly be taxed for what I believe is good for society. I am similarly okay with my taxes going toward public schools and welfare, even though I've got no children and a stable job. This is my contribution to my country and my people.

Then figure out a way to use your money in a such a way that doesn't force me to go along with you. You want to contribute? Take your money and some of your likeminded friends and go to your nearest hospital. Find people in need and help them.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I find it to be more than a bit shameful that there are people who don't believe that freedom to choose what you will buy is good for society.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

This goes to how you feel government handles the job though. You pay a lot for public schools but I can show you we pay a lot more than other countries and still score low on tests. In the abstract, paying some money to insure everyone has healthcare sounds reasonable. In practice how is it going to work out? Experience shows it wont be great. This is putting aside the fact that we cant afford another trillion in spending period, let alone in a recession with high unemployment.

All that said, the choice currently seems to be Obamacare or repeal and keep things how they are. It's not a great set of options.

_________________
“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

And here is the crux of the issue. Somehow it's all fine and dandy if it's exactly the same but at the state level instead of the national level. For some reason a larger group of people all agreeing that this is the right thing to do is worse than a smaller localized group of people agreeing this is the right thing to do. I swear, sometimes I think this is all just still being butt hurt from losing the civil war.

You can still move by the way. I hear Somalia is nice this time of year.

Hopefully some day people will be more concerned with advancing society more than advancing individuals.

So do I. Can I come help you pack?

ALso...

If we are going by that then Obamacare should be scrapped.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

A glib response but you seem unable to refute the actual argument.

It doesn't really matter at this point. The only thing that can fix this mess is the Audit the Federal Reserve legislation passing.

Lenas:

Until the day that society bleeds when you get cut you're looking at a pipe dream, even if I were to concede to the notion that a society that does away with personal responsibility and accountability can be advanced.

Aizle:

States rights are better because it allows for a competition of ideas, where you see 50 different strategies to address the same problem in action, and individuals get to choose the one thry like best for themselves.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Ah, from the master of glib himself. What argument am I to refute?

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Oh for God's sake. GIRLS, YOU'RE BOTH PRETTY.

I have no problem if you want to make a clever but unsupportable statement as long as you acknowledge it as such.

But your response


is no different than:

We must be looking at different fauna and flora threads.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Even if I were that serious, you think moving to another country is as easy as moving to another state? Really?

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Advancing individuals is the way you advance society. Robbing from the rich and giving to the poor sounds nice in fairy tales, and it makes us all feel good, but the simple fact of the matter is that not everyone contributes equally to society.

Health care is a game of limited resources. You can not create health care by government action. Health care requires highly trained individuals, and you have to compensate them for what is a very demanding and emotionally taxing profession. That does not make doctors greedy or immoral.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Are you really saying that it's just as easy for me to move from Rhode Island to Connecticut as it is for me to move from the US to Dubai?

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I'll help you pack.


Seriously though, given the difficulties of packing, selling a home, buying a home, changing banks, applying for jobs, schools, drivers license, insurance, etc etc etc, filling out visa/greencard documentation isn't the biggest hurdle.


of course the real point I'm making, that moving is a pain in the butt no matter if you're moving two towns over, two states over or two countries over. And that 'you could just move' is a silly argument to make in defense of Romney over Obama.

I don't want your creepy *** anywhere near me.

Seriously though, I don't think you thought everything through with what you propose.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

You've lost sight of the argument you were trying to make.

Not really.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

TheRiov -- isn't the entire illegal immigrant issue centered around the fact that getting green cards and visas is often a very demanding and long process?

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

They don't pay federal income tax. They still pay taxes. Some random guy making $40k a year pays more of his income in taxes than Mitt Romney does.

Unless you want to base "fairness" on having everyone in the country pay the exact same dollar amount, this argument is just baseless. The rich pay the least of their income in taxes of anyone, they just end up paying in the majority of tax revenue because they're just that much richer than everyone else.

In a roundabout way, they already do that with many, many things; they just call them deductions and credits. Don't buy a home? No mortgage interest deduction. Don't have kids? No dependents deduction. Don't buy a hybrid car? No tax credit. Don't invest in renewable energy generation facility, no tax credits. If you tax everyone $10, but you give people who do X a $2 deduction or credit, that's effectively the same thing as taxing everyone $8 and then taxing people who don't do X an extra $2. I agree that construing the ACA as a tax makes this "tax for not doing X" thing much more explicit, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing (because it's more honest) or a bad thing (because regulating through taxes is a bad idea in general and this further normalizes it).


I agree that there's no bright-line, principled distinction between doing something at a state level and doing it at the national level. However, there are definite practical differences that make the latter more problematic for individual liberty. It really is much easier, both logistically and personally/emotionally to move to another state than it is to move to another country. In addition, state governments are, at least in theory if not always in practice, "closer" to the people that elect them and therefore more responsive to the preferences and concerns of the local constituents. There's also the "states as laboratories" idea, which allows for experimentation with differing policy approaches to find the best one. There are times when a national policy is morally (e.g. Civil Rights Act) or pragmatically (e.g. Clean Air Act) necessary, but the federalist system has its advantages.

Thank you for that! But I don't think they heard you......

_________________
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

RD:

A tax credit to inventivize certain behaviors is not the same thing as a tax on not performing a certain behavior. The net result might be the same, but philosophically they are extraordinarily different.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20