The Glade 4.0

Figures. I made reference to a sexual organ and TheRiov came a runnin. Dude, seek help. You can get better!

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

WTF, man. Can you post without attacking someone?

Yes and do more times than not. TheRiov though has for some reason decided to take a shot or two at me(from another thread).

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

From what I just read, 11 of the 14 sections in SB 1070 were left standing. I'd say that's a win.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Well, since you don't live down here or enforce immigration laws, your incredulity is pretty much worthless. It doesn't even take long interacting with Mexicans along with Central Americans and anyone can tell which is which very, very accurately.

Try asking a Hispanic person what the word "pisto" means. The answer tells you if they're Mexican, or if they're Central American.

No wait. That can't possibly be true because it doesn't fit the imaginings of a liberal from Minnesota.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Hilarious, in view of the fact that you just dismissed the idea that people from different Spanish-speaking countries can be easily differentiated. If you hear someone speak English, I bet you can tell in a heartbeat if they're from Ireland, Ohio, or Texas, yet you say "Riigghhhht" when I say the same can be done with Spanish.

There's as simple reason: You assume that the cops will discriminate, and anything that might challenge that notion can't be accepted.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

What do you mean "vague standards for probable cause or reasonable suspicion"? Those terms have well-defined meanings:

Probable cause: "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".

Reasonable Suspicion: "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts" "that the person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity."

These are the same for every crime. Why you think they'd be any more "vague" in this case is beyond me. The police have to justify them to the courts, the same as with any other crime. The fact that the "likely targets" aren't white is irrelevant; the people doing the enforcing are not likely to be white either. Furthermore, it is perfectly acceptable to use Hispanic appearance as an articulable fact. The vast majority of illegal immigrants in the southern border area are Hispanic. While being hispanic is nowhere near sufficient in and of itself to establish reasonable suspicion it would be utterly silly to stop a person that was not hispanic or asian. Along the northern border, it would not be silly to do so.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Actually DE, what I dismissed was your (or law enforcement's) apparent psychic ability to determine if they are Americans or not. Certainly one can determine some information about their background and region that they came from. However that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether they are either an American citizen or here legally or not.

See, it's just that they all look and sound the same to him. But, and don't forget this, he's quite progressive and enlightened.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Being from Mexican or Central America != non American citizen.

There is this thing called naturalization...

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

If they're smuggling large quantities of good Tequila, just let them in. In fact, send them much further north.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Hey, I wonder if we can discourage illegal immigration by setting up a lottery where you pick a number between 1 and 195, and each country in the world is assigned a random number. You are deported there.

You might pull "The United States" and get lucky.

You could make a reality show out of it!

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I didn't say by any psychic means. I said by talking to them. People from different Spanish-speaking countries use different slang and idioms. For example the word "vos" isn't used by Mexicans. A non-Mexican doesn't usually know what a "mochajete" is, and a non-Mexican will tell you that "pisto" is money (dinero) while a Mexican will tell you it's booze (tequila) usually. Furthermore, Mexicans are usually found in the same height ranges as Americans, while central americans are significantly shorter on average.

Mexicans can answer questions about Mexican history, just like Americans can answer questions about American history. Mexicans know who Padre Hidalgo, for example, was or Pancho Villa, someone who is a central American usually won't.

All this absolutely does have to do with whether they are an American citizen or not, or a Mexican as opposed to a Guatemalan or an El Salvadoran, etc. A person who does not speak English, has no ID, and can't answer basic questions about America isn't an American citizen, especially not if they speak Spanish like a central American rather than a Mexican (American Spanish speakers in the Southwest almost always speak it like Mexicans even if they're not Mexican and here legally or are citizens. That's because the vast majority do speak it that way, and it rubs off.)

So yes, it does necessarily have to do with if they're here legally or not, especially if they aren't carrying any immigration papers, and can't even tell you what their Alien Registration Number is. It's like anything else; you look at all the articulable facts and then decide to arrest based on probable cause. It isn't the police or immigration officer's job to prove that the person is an illegal alien, just to establish enough reason to make an arrest. The person arrested is then entitled to a hearing in front of an immigration judge - unless they are apprehended within 100 miles of the border and within 14 days of their most recent entry, in which case any immigration officer may order them summarily removed.

So enough of this bullshit about "psychic" ability and "well it doesn't necessarily mean..." Yes, it does necessarily mean a person is here illegally when they can't answer any questions about where they were supposedly born in the U.S., or their story is changing, or they think they were born in a "colonia" or "barrio" in the U.S. that has an actual name and physical address - which we don't have or use. No, USCs do not have to carry ID, but they can tell you their name and date of birth and will know what state and city they were born in - and if they are USCs born outside the USC, they will definitely know the parental history that gives them citizenship and will definitely know their naturalization information by heart.

Furthermore, any regular police officer that detains someone for immigration is going to turn them over to immigration officers anyhow, and we are all formally trained on this stuff - both the Spanish, including the ways of determining when someone is lying about their immigration or citizenship, as well as the pertinent law on immigration and nationality.

So quit talking out of your ***.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This disappoints me. You should use psychic means. We need superhero border guards.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Border-Man!

Wrong. There are plenty of people who are here legally or naturalized, that live is strong communities of similar immigrants who would meet these criteria. Hell there are a **** ton of white Americans born here who can't answer basic questions about America. Your logic and reasoning is flat out wrong.

Yeah... Even if you're right 90% of the time, these things are not qualifiers for being a citizen. The logic is flawed.

But does lack of those qualities qualify as 'reasonable suspicion' for the officer in question to run a check?

I don't know the answer here. Posing it as a question.

Except for the part where those people will definitely know their alien registration number or naturalization number and information, or their date of birth and the state they were born in. Do you think people get deported without that information being checked, or their fingerprints being taken.

Furthermore, it isn't "my reasoning". It's the way things are actually done, it's regularly used to apprehend and deport illegal aliens, and it's been upheld by the courts. Furthermore, it almost never results in a wrongful deportation; in point of fact the only deportation of a USC that I know if was one of a teenager who was purposefully lying in order to get herself deported.

People who are naturalized citzens or legal residents who don't know anything about the US AND can't tell you their immigration information AND can't give a consistent or logical answer about where they're born AND don't know anything about the U.S. are exceedingly rare. There are not "plenty of" them. A person who is here legally, as a citizen or as an immigrant, will definitely be able to provide some piece of information that will allow you to verify that, even if it's something as basic as date of birth and the state they were born in, or their alien registration number.

So no, "my reasoning" isn't "flat out wrong" because in actual point of fact that's how things are done and it does not result either in erroneous deportations nor in endless harassment of Hispanic citizens or immigrants. The empirical fact is that you're simply wrong, and despite your protestations to the contrary, you simply don't know anything about the matter. To you, all "Hispanic" people look the same, and so you think they look that way even to people who are Hispanic or who have formal training to make them aware of how to tell the difference between a USC, a legal immigrant, or an alien, or a US born Hispanic person, a Mexican, or a Central American.

I've been educated on this. You haven't. You're wrong and I'm right, and you're not arguing against me. You're arguing against what the immigration and other Federal courts have determined.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

It's "right" about 99.99% of the time; a US citizen almost never gets arrested for immigration violations that pertain only to non-USCs. It's very easy to take name, state, and date of birth or naturalization number and verify that a person is a citizen. It only needs to be right about 66-75% of the time. That establishes probable cause, and then the person is arrested. Then other methods, like fingerprints and records checks can be used. Then the person gets a hearing in an immigration court. The "logic" is not "flawed" at all because it isn't the job of law enforcement to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt prior to making an arrest. Arrested =/= deported.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yes. In any case, you don't need reasonable suspicion to run a check. You need reasonable suspicion to detain someone. For a regualr police officer, they would need reasonable suspicion or probable cause of some other crime before detaining or arresting someone, and could run an immigration check while they were doing that anyhow, or summon a Federal immigration officer. Federal immigration officers can detain someone upon reasonable suspicion simply of an immigration violation.

Reasonable suspicion is not hard to attain, since it only justifies a brief detention. It is perfectly reasonable to suspect that a person that cannot speak any English and cannot answer basic questions to establish legal residence or citizenship and has no documents is here illegally.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I didn't say the logic of the practice was flawed, just the logic of your post. If a cop decides to question me, and I only respond in Portuguese, and I don't have my ID on me, and I don't know what the capitol of Alabama is, does that strip me of my citizenship?

No, but I don't have a problem with that providing reasonable grounds for detaining you until your citizenship (or lack thereof) can be determined.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

No one said that it did. However, no one would ask the capital of Alabama unless the incident took place in Alabama or unless you claimed to be from Alabama. They'd ask a state that actually pertained to the person in some way. By basic question I mean really basic, and a lot of questions will pertain specifically to you. If you had no ID, your name, state and date of birth, SSN, naturalization or alien number for naturalized citizens or resident aliens can all be used to establish the veracity of your claim. The only potential problem there is that most immigration officers and police speak English and Spanish, but thankfully there is a 24-hour language line service to help with that.

If you can't provide any of the information above, then you're not a citizen. Either that, or you're going out of your way to appear not to be one.

Furthermore, the entire circumstances are taken into account. You guys keep trying to pick out a few things like "doesn't speak English, no ID, can't answer questions" and ignoring the fact that other observations are going to be there as well. Is this "citizen" out in the middle of the desert in Arizona with 20 other people walking through the desert with 3 pairs of pants on and a gallon jug of water? Or are they walking near a college campus with a backpack? Or in a car with 3 other people? If so, who are those people?

There's a lot more to it than what I'm describing because I don't have time to re-create an entire course in immigration investigations here for you. Sure, the "logic" doesn't work if you pick out three facts, one of which sucks anyhow, and use them in a vacuum. No one does that.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."