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Will Obamacare be overturned by the SCOTUS?
The Supreme Court will completely overturn Obamacare 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
The SC will only overturn the individual mandate 52%  52%  [ 11 ]
The SC will leave the bill intact. 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
Will what be overturned by who? 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 21
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Apparently not anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:49 pm 
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It's also worth noting that I think tax credits should DIAF, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
It's also worth noting that I think tax credits should DIAF, too.


Noooo!! Lol! My tax credits on my kids are the only thing keeping me from having to sell my house to pay my taxes!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:12 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
It's also worth noting that I think tax credits should DIAF, too.


Noooo!! Lol! My tax credits on my kids are the only thing keeping me from having to sell my house to pay my taxes!!

Additionally worth noting: property taxes are also completely unreasonable to impose on a citizen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Additionally worth noting: property taxes are also completely unreasonable to impose on a citizen.

Amen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Not gonna freak out about it myself. We'd just made a decision some time back that if this is upheld, we'll cease paying the federal government any taxes at all, and move on.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:30 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I agree that there's no bright-line, principled distinction between doing something at a state level and doing it at the national level. However, there are definite practical differences that make the latter more problematic for individual liberty. It really is much easier, both logistically and personally/emotionally to move to another state than it is to move to another country. In addition, state governments are, at least in theory if not always in practice, "closer" to the people that elect them and therefore more responsive to the preferences and concerns of the local constituents. There's also the "states as laboratories" idea, which allows for experimentation with differing policy approaches to find the best one. There are times when a national policy is morally (e.g. Civil Rights Act) or pragmatically (e.g. Clean Air Act) necessary, but the federalist system has its advantages.


I don't disagree. However, I think the whole states as laboratories is VASTLY oversold.

That said, this is quite obviously something that morally needs to be addressed at the top. The fact that we are the only 1st world country that doesn't already have universal healthcare should make that obvious.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree. However, I think the whole states as laboratories is VASTLY oversold.

Liberals don't seem to complain about States as laboratories when California goes and creates emissions laws, or Iowa goes and makes a standardized test...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree. However, I think the whole states as laboratories is VASTLY oversold.

Liberals don't seem to complain about States as laboratories when California goes and creates emissions laws, or Iowa goes and makes a standardized test...


When have I ever advocated for either of those?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree. However, I think the whole states as laboratories is VASTLY oversold.

Liberals don't seem to complain about States as laboratories when California goes and creates emissions laws, or Iowa goes and makes a standardized test...


When have I ever advocated for either of those?

How can you possibly believe that central planning, rather than competition, creates the best products when every single shred of evidence runs to the contrary.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
How can you possibly believe that central planning, rather than competition, creates the best products when every single shred of evidence runs to the contrary.


If your goal is to improve the average outcome, (life expectancy, general health, etc.) an inferior product that's available to everyone can have a better outcome than a superior one that only some can afford.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:31 pm 
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What group of humans can organize the desires, rights, conditions, and judgements of 300 million others into one unified code - ignoring the fact that these desires, conditions, and judgements of these 300 million others change frequently?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:33 pm 
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"Its amazing tomehow many people think that voting to have the government give poorpeople money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people yourself is compassion. Voting for our government to use its guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-r-ighteous bullying laziness. People need to be fed, medicated, educated, clothed, and sheltered. If we're compassionate, well help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gunpoint."

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Rynar wrote:
How can you possibly believe that central planning, rather than competition, creates the best products when every single shred of evidence runs to the contrary.


If your goal is to improve the average outcome, (life expectancy, general health, etc.) an inferior product that's available to everyone can have a better outcome than a superior one that only some can afford.

Not if the goal is to have the best possible solution to an ever evolving set of problems. The trouble with a single, massive plan, is that you'll never know about the availability of better solutions, because they were never allowed to exist. Since when have monopolies led to lower costs for the payer and a better servive or product?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Elmo,

Could we get a source for that?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Elmo,

Could we get a source for that?

That's Penn Jillette, IIRC.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:55 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
That said, this is quite obviously something that morally needs to be addressed at the top. The fact that we are the only 1st world country that doesn't already have universal healthcare should make that obvious.


There's no moral reason it needs to be addressed at all. In fact, the fact that other first world countries do it points only to their own double standards. In the main, they shove the cost of defense off on us, demand a vote in what we do with the defense we pay for, use the largess from that situation to pay for social programs including their healthcare systems, and then turn around and berate us for being the "only first world country not to have universal healthcare". That's because we're the only first world country doing things right, for the most part.

Canada and Australia are special cases because of their high land area and low population.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Appeal to popularity isn't a fallacy if I don't want it to be!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:43 pm 
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The Firearms Affordabilty and Training act

This tax is based on the presumption that a defenless population is a significant economic drain on economic productivity. With the increaced costs for law enforcement, prossecution and incarceration by mulitple law enforcement bodies, a preemptive requirment will now be placed on the population. Every American adult, subject to specific disqualifications such as felony, or lack of actual arms to discharge a fire arm!) must prove their ownerstip of at least one functional firearm, with a required supply of ammunition, and twice yearly skill testing. Those who fail to aquire their now mandated firearms will be subected to fine.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Not if the goal is to have the best possible solution to an ever evolving set of problems. The trouble with a single, massive plan, is that you'll never know about the availability of better solutions, because they were never allowed to exist. Since when have monopolies led to lower costs for the payer and a better servive or product?


Never, but that's totally irrelevant, we're not comparing two business models. Public health care is very much robbing the rich to give to the poor, there's no tiptoeing around that, but if you believe that saving the most lives is more important than upholding property rights, it is certainly the better solution. It doesn't take many zeroes to completely destroy an average, and private health care will have a lot of zeroes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Again, you don't have nearly enough data to analyze the best way to administer universal healthcare, public or private, even if we only examine the problem as it exists right this very second, making no consideration of future issues that may arise. Any time you only do something one way, you have no way of knowing if it's the right way, and when that happens it almost always means it isn't. This is an awful thing when you're talking about willfully mismanaging about a third of the economy.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:51 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:52 am 
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Sorry for being a retard, and sorry if I have asked before but can we take a step back and can someone explain to me how this provides health care to anyone? Unless I am mistaken it just means if you don't buy it then you have to pay a tax.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:16 am 
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By forcing healthy people in their twenties and thirties like you and me who never go to the doctor to buy health insurance we won't use, the government can buy insurance for those who can't afford it. At least that's how I understand it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:24 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
By forcing healthy people in their twenties and thirties like you and me who never go to the doctor to buy health insurance we won't use, the government can buy insurance for those who can't afford it. At least that's how I understand it.

But we already buy insurance (I do anyways) and the government is not using that money to pay for insurance for anyone else.

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