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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:20 pm 
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The Dancing Cat
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RangerDave wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
I think Obama finally got involved because there is more proof that they intentionally let these guns walk so they could push for more gun control here in the US.

This is where I think the whole thing crosses into nutty conspiracy theory territory.

+1

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:22 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
I think Obama finally got involved because there is more proof that they intentionally let these guns walk so they could push for more gun control here in the US.

This is where I think the whole thing crosses into nutty conspiracy theory territory.



Ummm...people actually involved with this and in the ATF have made this claim. This wasn't generated by some right wing group or politican.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Things which can rationally lead one to consider it possible Obama wanted a behind the scenes way to push more gun control.

1. His recorded statements at a fundraiser that they were working behind the scenes to launch gun control.
2. His history of pushing gun control when in office.
3. The lauding of the US firearms used in Mexican gangs for months before gunwalker broke (which stopped being pushed when it did). (Which was a big lie anyway).

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:40 pm 
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#3 is the only theory presented to tie Gwalker to gun control efforts and I don't think anyone in the US gives two shits about whose guns Mexican cartels are using to kill each other and their citizenry. Extremely tenuous.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
3. The lauding of the US firearms used in Mexican gangs for months before gunwalker broke (which stopped being pushed when it did). (Which was a big lie anyway).


Wait, so it was a lie? US guns weren't being used by mexican gangs? But the Admin was pushing gun sales to cartels to push the cause for gun control? But they weren't pushing guns because there weren't being used? Even though they were found at a crime scene?

Can't follow this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:05 pm 
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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-5 ... gulations/

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavli ... _miserably

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:08 pm 
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The "90 percent" lie.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Things which can rationally lead one to consider it possible Obama wanted a behind the scenes way to push more gun control.

1. His recorded statements at a fundraiser that they were working behind the scenes to launch gun control.
2. His history of pushing gun control when in office.


Quote:
Obama "Under the Radar Gun Control" Comment Debunked
Quote:
Barack Obama has not been an anti-gun president. His administration’s only tangible move against Second Amendment rights: the recently implemented long gun registry for some 8500 U.S. gun dealers in border states. Created by imperial fiat Executive Order, the long gun registry gives the ATF free license to trample on federal law (the Firearm Owners Protection Act) prohibiting ANY government gun registry. Otherwise, nada. When it comes to “is the president keeping away from the 2a third rail?” American gun rights groups won’t take “yes” for an answer. They believe—or say they believe to raise cash for the cause—that a re-elected Obama will be a gun grabber unleashed. Their most compelling evidence . . .
An off-hand remark made to the Brady Campaign during a White House meeting after a crazed gunman shot 20 people, killing six people and wounding Representative Gabrielle Giffords. Supposedly, President Obama said his administration was “working [on gun control measures] under the radar.”

TTAG called bullshit. The quote came from the most dubious of all sources: the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. As the Brits would say, they would say that wouldn’t they? Just as the NRA needs anti-anti-gun hysteria to keep their coffers full, the Brady Campaign needs some glimmer of gun grabbing hope to justify their existence.

The tampabaytimes.com has decided to do a little fact checking on the now infamous quote:

Relying on a secondhand quote of Obama — relayed to Washington Post by gun control advocate Sarah Brady — the NRA claimed that
Quote:
“Obama admits he’s coming for our guns, telling Sarah Brady, ‘We are working on (gun control), but under the radar.’ ” The genesis of the quote is a brief 2011 White House meeting between Obama, Brady, her husband Jim, and former Brady Center [sic] to Prevent Gun Violence president Paul Helmke.

Helmke told PolitiFact there was no promise from Obama on gun policy, and certainly no dramatic pledge to come for anyone’s firearms.

Likely, the president was talking about an in-the-works program to get gun dealers in border states to forward some gun purchases to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Helmke said.

Brady told us her quote has been misinterpreted and that she herself never spoke with Obama about gun policy. “What ever I might have said or agreed to was purely speculative as I never spoke to the president myself about this issue,” she said.

Whatever was said and what it was referring to is murky, but the NRA took a fragment of an unclear quote and prescribed the most far-reaching, conspiratorial conclusion — when there simply isn’t enough evidence for such a sweeping claim. We rated that claim Pants on Fire.


Roger that. And shame on Sarah Brady to allow the made-up quote to remain in play despite the fact that she knew it was a complete fabrication (most likely by herself). But then why would we expect the antis to tell the truth about guns?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Haven't read this yet, but Fortune did a big write-up of Fast and Furious. My impression is that some folks here won't like its conclusions, but it's getting a fair bit of attention and is supposedly fairly comprehensive, so figured I'd post it here even though I can't really comment on it yet.

Money quote (bolding mine):

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn. Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case.

Fairly comprehensive, my white chocolate butt.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavli ... _miserably
Becca Watkins, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform spokeswoman wrote:
Fortune’s story is a fantasy made up almost entirely from the accounts of individuals involved in the reckless tactics that took place in Operation Fast and Furious. It contains factual errors – including the false statement that Chairman Issa has called for Attorney General Holder’s resignation – and multiple distortions. It also hides critical information from readers – including a report in the Wall Street Journal – indicating that its primary sources may be facing criminal charges. Congressional staff gave Fortune Magazine numerous examples of false statements made by the story’s primary source and the magazine did not dispute this information. It did not, however, explain this material to its readers. The one point of agreement the Committee has with this story is its emphasis on the role Justice Department prosecutors, not just ATF agents, played in guns being transferred to drug cartels in Mexico. The allegations made in the story have been examined and rejected by congressional Republicans, Democrats, and the Justice Department.


Also see this for more information on Voth and Newell:
http://townhall.com/columnists/katiepav ... gunwalking
Katie Pavlich has been following this story very closely since the Terry murder. She has also written a book on it. The only thing that seemed comprehensive in your article was the author's attempt to lay blame at the NRA's and the state of Arizona's feet.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:39 am 
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... Texas-Pols


However Holder does not believe that executive privilege exists at the state level apparently.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:27 pm 
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http://www.rollcall.com/news/darrell_is ... 828-1.html

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:47 am 
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Quote:
Cummings has sided with the DOJ in the debate over the secret applications, but the full substance of his argument is unknown.


Yeah, ok. I've heard some of his statements on the subject, and the Congressional Black Caucus's accusations of racism for investigating this.

His argument is clear to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Quote:
Cummings has sided with the DOJ in the debate over the secret applications, but the full substance of his argument is unknown.


Yeah, ok. I've heard some of his statements on the subject, and the Congressional Black Caucus's accusations of racism for investigating this.

His argument is clear to me.

Lol.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:59 pm 
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Does their have to be an actual "wolf" for "the boy who cried wolf" to apply

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:15 am 
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The King
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http://pjmedia.com/blog/univision-break ... -cover-up/

More F&F info.

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