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Will Obamacare be overturned by the SCOTUS?
The Supreme Court will completely overturn Obamacare 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
The SC will only overturn the individual mandate 52%  52%  [ 11 ]
The SC will leave the bill intact. 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
Will what be overturned by who? 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 21
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:44 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
No, you really couldn't. They don't sell enriched uranium at Home Depot.


Enriched uranium would not be used in a dirty bomb. It would be economically stupid to do so. Beta decay products far down the beta decay chain are sufficiently radioactive to achieve the same effect.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Dirty bombs are overrated and play far more on people's fear of radiation than anything else. However, if you want an actual nuke, you need enriched uranium or plutonium. Nothing else will do, and no, Elmo could not make a gun-type weapon if he wanted to without being detected and stopped. He could probably make everything else up to the point of needing to insert a core, but without that little piece of fissile material, it's just a really complicated high explosive bomb. If he wants to **** around with high explosives, fine go ahead. Just the rest of you, make sure you're not around when he's doing it. People who think they know what they're doing with bombs and really don't tend to meet bad ends.

Furthermore, the fact that a law against something does not magically prevent it from happening is not a reason to not make laws. Laws do not magically prevent murder, arson, burglary, horse thieving, wife beating, stagecoach robbing, or anything else. This is like my kid telling me that it's stupid for me to tell my kid not to plug her Wii into the living room TV because she'll do it when I'm not home anyhow. Yes, she probably will, and then I'll find the sound cables unplugged and deal with her, no matter how loudly she insists she really didn't do it. I know the damn cables didn't just fall out, and it's the fact that she never plugs them back in that resulted in the rule in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:02 pm 
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The Radioactive Boy Scout

Making a dirty bomb is not nearly as difficult as people would imagine. Granted, post-9/11, an individual buying thousands of camping lantern mantles might raise some red flags. But then, that approach to controlled substances hasn't exactly driven meth labs to extinction. Cramped, perhaps, but not entirely eliminated. I believe a sufficiently dedicated person could assemble a surprisingly radioactive mass without drawing attention to themselves and without being prohibitively expensive, either.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
The Radioactive Boy Scout

Making a dirty bomb is not nearly as difficult as people would imagine. Granted, post-9/11, an individual buying thousands of camping lantern mantles might raise some red flags. But then, that approach to controlled substances hasn't exactly driven meth labs to extinction. Cramped, perhaps, but not entirely eliminated. I believe a sufficiently dedicated person could assemble a surprisingly radioactive mass without drawing attention to themselves and without being prohibitively expensive, either.


No, making a dirty bomb is not all that hard, since you can use any radioactive material, not just that suitable for a fission bomb. It's making an actual nuke that would be hard.

Your dirty bomb does not need to be all that dirty, since it really does not do its damage by radiation or by explosive power. All it needs to do is spread enough radiation that the press will start howling about "ZOMG A DIRTY BOMB WENT OFF!" and the real damage, total panic, will occur (although it's likely to be a lot less total than people think outside of that area, too). Still, the freakout that does occur will be worse than 1000 dirty bombs actual damage.

The government has attempted to have it both ways, on one hand allying fear by pointing out how hard it would actually be for terrorists (or anyone else) to make or acquire an actual nuke, by saying "but they could get a dirty bomb". This is counterproductive. On the surface, it appears responsible and accurate since a dirty bomb is vastly less destructive and is easier to make, but the fact is that the average person A) fears radiation excessively B) does not understand nuclear materials or weapons very well, and C) the press can be counted on to sensationalize the entire matter.

Essentially it's as if they were saying "terrorists don't have nerve gas, but they could get pepper spray" and then the press freaking out about CHEMICAL WEAPONS ZOMG!!! Yes, they both technically are chemical weapons but that does not mean we need to pretend pepper spray or tear gas are VX or Sarin.

Or, to put it another way, it's as if the government said "Well, they can't release tigers in the streets but they could release housecats" and then the press started screeching HOLY **** PREDATORY FELINES!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:34 pm 
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There is one line in that article that everyone is overlooking which is the key to being remarkably more simple to create fissile material than people think. The problem becomes create stable fissile material for long term storage - a feat that cannot be done without access to very expensive equipment.

That line is "David Hahn taught himself to build a neutron gun."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:21 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... rCRb8gB_II

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:25 am 
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If a reasonably intelligent hobbyist could build a nuke in his basement, somehow I doubt Iran would be having so much trouble going nuclear.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:21 am 
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Its not about building a nuke RD, its about building a stable nuke. I cannot build a stable nuke. I can build a nuke.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:36 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Or, to put it another way, it's as if the government said "Well, they can't release tigers in the streets but they could release housecats" and then the press started screeching HOLY **** PREDATORY FELINES!!!!


LOL! Awesome line.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:15 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
If a reasonably intelligent hobbyist could build a nuke in his basement, somehow I doubt Iran would be having so much trouble going nuclear.


Precisely. Anything a reasonably intellligent hobbyist has access to, Iran and North Korea have access to. A lot of the "information" on how to build a nuke out there is misleading or outright wrong. It's not hard to build a device that conceptually operates in the same manner as a nuclear weapon, but wouldn't actually result in a nuclear explosion even with fissile material inserted because the precise specifications are not exactly right. This is why early nuclear weapons were so heavy relative to their yield; massive overengineering was needed to ensure reliability.

Even in reasonably modern warheads, there can be concerns over actual reliability. Some estimates put possible Soviet warhead dud rates as high as 40% and the W76 presently in use has been the subject of concerns over whether it would function reliably if called upon for actual use due to the incredibly tight tolerances used to save weight when it was built. A casual hobbiest is not likely to build a nuke that will actually make a nuclear "BOOM" even if he somehow gets enough fissile material. He is fairly likely to get a hell of a lot of local contamination and possibly a very impressive fizzle.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:52 pm 
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A gun type nuke is huge and relatively simple.

You take two masses of fissile material that are independently less than critical mass. You then smash them together so they are critical mass. Then boom.

Iran and North Korea can make nuclear weapons - don't kid yourselves. What they cannot make is a modern stable nuke that can fit on a modern missile.

You keep inserting all these qualifiers which are not what I stated. It would hardly do North Korea or Iran much good in developing a nuke that needs to be carried by a conventional heavy bomber so they don't develop one.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
A gun type nuke is huge and relatively simple.

You take two masses of fissile material that are independently less than critical mass. You then smash them together so they are critical mass. Then boom.


If it were that simple the North Koreans would not have had as many problems as they have had. The Manhatten project would not have been necessary. It's relatively simple compared to an implosion weapon - it is not simple at all in any absolute sense, not the least because fissile material in sufficient quantity is not a given.

The only thing you have succeeded in doing is oversimplifying the weapon in a conceptual sense in a single sentence. The fact remains that conceptually understanding a machine of any kind does not mean you can build one. I can conceptually tell you what a computer does, but that does not make me able to build so much as a pocket calculator. I understand how s team locomotive works conceptually; I could not build one or even design one if asked to do so.

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Iran and North Korea can make nuclear weapons - don't kid yourselves. What they cannot make is a modern stable nuke that can fit on a modern missile.


no, North Korea has succeeded in making a single unweaponizable nuclear device. A nuclear device is not a weapon until you can fit it into a bomb, missile, artillery shell, or something like that - at a minimum, and even if they could their chances of penetrating the defenses of a modern opponent are questionable at best.

Iran is probably ahead of North Korea in terms of ability to produce everything but

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You keep inserting all these qualifiers which are not what I stated. It would hardly do North Korea or Iran much good in developing a nuke that needs to be carried by a conventional heavy bomber so they don't develop one.


It doesn't matter what you stated. You don't know what you are talking about. You are simply pretending that people are immoral for not following your philosophy, and yet claiming morality would be served by giving you, personally, the ability to vaporize thousands in defense of "morality". You defend this with internet-quality rhetoric that presents a facade of "consistency", and which gains sympathy only because it plays to people's frusterations with governmental excess and ineptitude.

This would make you just another political troll, until you claim to be able to produce your own nuclear bomb, and to sum up questions that took incredible resources and the minds of the most brilliant physicists of their time to solve in single sentences about "smashing" and "boom". This says nothing of the national effort of North Korea or Iran, which, while pathetic in comparison to American resources represent far more education and experience than you can have in that tiny brain of yours, and vastly more resources than you can summon as a "hobbyist". You commit the typical amateur mistake of thinking understanding broad concepts eliminates technical issues and complexities of which you are not aware. The colossal arrogance of this is astounding. Of course, you continue to claim you "could" build a nuke "if you wanted to". "I could do it if I wanted to" is the battle cry of every teenage loser that ever got his *** kicked at one-on-one.

So quite frankly, I don't care about whether you have or have not stated any qualifiers because I don't particularly care about the technical semantic accuracy of your inane prattling. The fact is that you can't make a gun nuke or any other nuke. If you want to make a dirty bomb, please, by all means, proceed. Then we can have your *** thrown in jail for the rest of your life and wash our hands of you. In the meantime (since I know perfectly well you are not going to make a dirty bomb, because you'd really rather live in the comfort you are accustomed to and talk trash about killing people on the internet) we'll be quite secure int he knowledge that you ain't gonna nuke ****, and all the complaining in the world about childish ideas of "inconsistency" or "immorality" will not change the fact that people are still not being vaporized so that your ideas of inherent rights can proceed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:34 pm 
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You can fit as many sentences together as you like DE but you fundamentally do not not know what you're talking about here and since your talking doesn't change reality - it fundamentally does not matter.

To everyone else: I apologize for distracting the conversation by engaging in a conversation that doesn't matter.

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Elmarnieh wrote:
You can fit as many sentences together as you like DE but you fundamentally do not not know what you're talking about here and since your talking doesn't change reality - it fundamentally does not matter.


The hilarity of you talking about reality is beyond compare. All you're doing is claiming to be talking about reality and that I don't know what I;m talking about when you have yet to do anything othe than make grandiose and unbelievable claims. You must take everyone else here for an idiot.

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To everyone else: I apologize for distracting the conversation by engaging in a conversation that doesn't matter.


No number of rhetorical tricks to appear to know what you're talking about will help your case. What you should be apologizing for is treating everyone else here as if they were a complete idiot.

You did not enter one shred of fact or counterargument. All you did was attempt summary dismissal.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Ordinary persons may not be able to build nuclear weapons, pocket calculators, or steam engines, but there are gods walking among us who can.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:03 am 
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DE - all you offered was your opinion. We never touched on physics - you never even commented about understanding why the neutron gun was important (let alone the ease of availability of borated parafin).

But hey lets not quibble about who is lacking in real practicle knowledge when it comes to nuclear physics.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:37 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
borated parafin


Anyone else read that and immediately think:


Image Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:31 am 
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Sui!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:03 pm 
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http://pjmedia.com/blog/roberts-v-rober ... epage=true


Good read.

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Roberts v. Roberts

During the oral argument on ObamaCare, the justice who most concisely destroyed the government’s argument that it was a “tax” was … Chief Justice John Roberts.

Here was the colloquy between the chief justice and Solicitor General Donald Verrilli during the March 27, 2012 oral argument [1]:

GENERAL VERRILLI: … it seems to me that not only is it fair to read this as an exercise of the tax power, but this Court has got an obligation to construe it as an exercise of the tax power, if it can be upheld on that basis.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Why didn’t Congress call it a tax, then?

GENERAL VERRILLI: Well –

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: You’re telling me they thought of it as a tax, they defended it on the tax power. Why didn’t they say it was a tax?

GENERAL VERRILLI: They might have thought, Your Honor, that calling it a penalty as they did would make it more effective in accomplishing its objectives. But it is in the Internal Revenue Code, it is collected by the IRS on April 15th. I don’t think this is a situation in which you can say –

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, that’s the reason. They thought it might be more effective if they called it a penalty. [Emphasis added].

In his eventual opinion, the chief justice concluded that what Congress expressly, purposely, and repeatedly called a “penalty” (not a “tax”), to be imposed on those who did not comply with the legislative mandate that they “shall” obtain insurance, could fairly be read as a tax — even though a tax is neither what Congress called it nor intended it to be — and thus within the Constitutional power to levy taxes. As an old law school professor used to say, I get it all except the “thus.”

Henceforth law professors will have to teach their students that the Constitutional provision allowing Congress to levy taxes includes not only (1) the power to levy taxes on things you do, income you earn, or other activities, but also (2) a judicially created power to levy “shared responsibility payments” on commerce you don’t engage in. This is an argument that all five appellate courts that considered the argument on the merits before it reached the Supreme Court rejected (one appellate court ruled it was a “tax” for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act and dismissed the case without reaching the merits of any Constitutional question).

Writing for the Court, the chief justice held that the “shared responsibility payment” is a tax, even though Congress repeatedly called it a “penalty” in the law; went out of its way not to label it a tax; and had ObamaCare supporters, from the president on down, repeatedly deny it was a tax while the legislation was being considered — only to turn around and argue in court that a tax is what it was. Now that the chief justice has held it was a tax, the administration is again denying it was a tax.

The “payment” was not designed to generate revenue, but to compel people to comply with the mandate. If the law works as intended, no one will make any “shared responsibility payments” at all, but rather purchase the mandated insurance. The “tax” in that case will raise no revenue, but it will have achieved its goal: enforcement of the mandate. That is the hallmark of a penalty, not a “tax.” In his colloquy with the solicitor general, Chief Justice Roberts skillfully established that point.

So the law as it stands now is that Congress cannot make us eat broccoli, but can mandate everyone do so and impose a failure-to-eat-broccoli tax on anyone not complying with the mandate. Congress can apparently mandate anything, as long as it accompanies the mandate with a failure-to-do-it tax that need not be called a tax.

The chief justice’s opinion is the maraschino cherry on a legislative process marked by extraordinary cynicism [2]. In addition to the creation of a disingenuous new concept — a “shared responsibility payment” that can be treated as a non-tax for purposes of passing the law and then a tax for purposes of defending it in court — the ObamaCare legislation featured:

1. A huge new “Medicare contribution” by “millionaires” making $200,000 or more that was (a) not a contribution and (b) did not go into the Medicare Trust Fund

2. Sleight-of-hand financial projections that mixed ten years of benefits with six years of costs to make a massive new entitlement seem financially stable

3. Medicare “savings” that were counted twice under the bill — once to “save” Medicare and then again to finance a massive new entitlement unrelated to Medicare

4. A 2,000 page bill that likely was neither read nor understood by most of those who voted on it

5. Blatant pay-offs to individual senators to secure the votes necessary for passage

6. An all-day secret meeting at the White House with union representatives and others to refashion the final bill to their liking, revising the tax on “Cadillac” union health plans with the “Medicare contribution”

7. A suspect parliamentary procedure that rushed through a vote, on Christmas Eve, on a cobbled-together final bill, without hearings or time for public comment

8. Assertions that the bill had to be passed so people could find out what was in it

9. A refusal by the speaker of the House to treat Constitutional objections seriously (“Are you serious? Are you serious?”)

10. After passage of the legislation, a thinly veiled threat by the president of the United States to the Court’s legitimacy if it were to overturn the “duly constituted” law

Charles Krauthammer argued that Chief Justice Roberts’ opinion is explained by the fact that he “carries two identities” – a jurisprudential one (as a constitutional conservative) and an institutional one (as the chief justice “entrusted with the custodianship of the court’s legitimacy, reputation and stature”). But the chief justice swore an allegiance to the Constitution, not to the Court. If he decided to put the latter above the former, he issued an opinion that did damage to both. He promised to be an umpire and call them as he saw them, not to function as a player.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:41 pm 
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I was just wondering if it would be possible to have a thread where we didn't have board members allude to the possibility that they might be attempting to make WMDs in their basements. I'm sure it's too late, but it would have been nice not to have every single member of our community be on some sort of watch list.

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You do realize that the reason terrorists don't use nuclear "dirty bombs" is for cost effectiveness rather than an inability to produce? The public is scared of such devices because the word "nuclear" pops up, and that's automatically ten times worse than anything else that could possibly happen. Unfortunately, it really isn't.

To use DE's conceptual understanding notion, I actually do possess a conceptual understanding of how computers work, as opposed to a vague understanding, and I could build one out of raw parts. (Resistors and capacitors, not parts off of NewEgg.) It would not be anything you could play games on, because I don't have the resources to pack enough transistors onto a circuit board. It would, however, be a computer. It would not resemble a computer to many of you, but that's because many of you do not possess the conceptual understanding that you think you do.

It would not be a particularly powerful computer. This is due to my lacking proper facilities, resources, and man hours. It is not due to any other reason, aside perhaps laziness. I don't really feel like building my own homemade computer when I can buy one for a thousand dollars.

Similar concepts apply to nuclear weapons. Them damn turrists could conceivably build a dirty bomb. It would not level a city. They just don't have the supply chain to make one that could. It could, however, destroy an airport or a football stadium.

So could dynamite, and dynamite is cheaper and easier to get ahold of. So no, our oppressive and overreaching government isn't putting people on terrorists watch lists because they think someone made veiled references to being able to build a nuclear weapon in their basement. Domestic terrorists don't go through all the effort of making a suitcase nuke when plastic explosives do the job just as well.

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They would put them on a watch list, because someone who has expressed the ability to create a nuclear weapon in their basement would likely also be willing to build another type of explosive.

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Like I said anyone with a moderate income, time, and access to a library can build a gun type nuke. It not an extraordinary feat by any stretch of the imagination even if it would be a rare one.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to waste money on such a project. I'd much rather put my time into making the backyard more relaxing and more producing of food.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:30 pm 
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What is a "gun type nuke"? Do you mean a rail gun powered by fission or fusion? A gun that shoots radiation? A gun that fires mini nuclear bombs? A gun that fires radioactive bullets?

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Nitefox: The government can already do that, it doesn't need the supreme court ruling. The 16th amendment says "without apportionment," so there's nothing preventing the government from saying you have to pay 100% income tax until you do XYZ.


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