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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:55 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
shuyung wrote:
We already have penalties for committing a crime, whether with a firearm or not.

Aye, but I'm looking to prevent, not penalize.


Except those intending to commit a crime with a firearm don't particularly care about the laws...

Generally speaking, firearms laws only make life difficult for legal owners of firearms.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:04 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Already have universal background checks at FFL's RD. Have for years andyears.

Not sure what FFL stands for, but my understanding is that things like gun shows and other private sales don't have the same background check requirements that dealers do. Is that not the case?


Federally Firearm License - dealers. All dealers at a gun show also do this. Private sales vary from state to state here in pa handguns that are not direct family transfer have to go through an FFL while long guns may be sold without doing so.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:47 am 
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shuyung wrote:
Maybe it's because I'm good at math, but I'm willing to accept that risk.


So you'd be fine with your neighbor in a normal suburb house (1/4 acre lot maybe) firing their gun on their property?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:09 am 
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NephyrS wrote:
If their disability would make it far more likely that they might inadvertently injure someone else? Yes.

If you're too blind to distinguish between people/clearly see targets 20 yards away, you should not be shooting at them. We don't let people who can't see play Russian Roulette with their cars, why would we let them do it with guns?

Similarly, if you don't have the arm and hand strength to control a DE, you shouldn't be shooting it.

And if you can't consistently hit what you're aiming, you shouldn't be shooting it.

And yes, DE, that's whats happened to all my friends who got overpowered guns too. They just wanted something big and badass, not something that would actually be a good personal defense weapon. Especially since half of them are using it in their homes, where a shotgun would be far better.

I want people like Elmo to have guns.


There are already laws in place covering my "abilities" with a firearm. If I fire blindly, I can be charged with reckless endangerment at a minimum. Where's the 20 yards rule come from? What if the blind individual wants a firearm only to protect themselves at point blank range? Sure, there's better weapons for this, but how do we get to say that they are not allowed to own a specific tool because they are blind? I get not having the privilege to drive on public roads, but they can still ride on them. They can still own a car. Laws should govern how they use it, not whether they can own it.

What if they just want to be collectors and don't intend to use it? Why should they be cut out of the market for this? What if they want to be a dealer? I don't see being blind as sufficient cause to prevent this.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:29 am 
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Aizle wrote:
So you'd be fine with your neighbor in a normal suburb house (1/4 acre lot maybe) firing their gun on their property?

Yes. Why aren't you?

Let me take a flyer, here. You are beginning with the assumption that a bullet fired is going to hit somebody unintended a large amount of the time, and that firearm owners are retards that pop off shots just to hear a bang?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:55 am 
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shuyung wrote:
You are beginning with the assumption that...firearm owners are retards that pop off shots just to hear a bang?

I can't speak for Aizle, but personally, I make no such assumption about firearm owners generally. A guy who fires his gun for practice and/or fun on his 1/4 acre lot in a suburb, though? Yep, that guy's an irresponsible dipshit.


Last edited by RangerDave on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:56 am 
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Apropos of nothing, I'm a firearm owner, and I haven't fired a bullet in about ten years.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:59 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Not sure what FFL stands for, but my understanding is that things like gun shows and other private sales don't have the same background check requirements that dealers do. Is that not the case?

Federally Firearm License - dealers. All dealers at a gun show also do this. Private sales vary from state to state here in pa handguns that are not direct family transfer have to go through an FFL while long guns may be sold without doing so.

Interesting. Didn't realize the background checks were now required at gun shows. When you say "dealers at a gun show", though, does that mean anyone and everyone who sells a gun there, or is there some exception for small-time sellers?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
I can't speak for Aizle, but personally, I make no such assumption about firearm owners generally. A guy who fires his gun for practice and/or fun on his 1/4 acre lot in a suburb, though? Yep, that guy's an irresponsible dipshit.

So then, A) what percentage of the firearm population does "that guy" represent and, B) we already have "reckless discharge of a firearm" laws.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
If their disability would make it far more likely that they might inadvertently injure someone else? Yes.

If you're too blind to distinguish between people/clearly see targets 20 yards away, you should not be shooting at them. We don't let people who can't see play Russian Roulette with their cars, why would we let them do it with guns?

Similarly, if you don't have the arm and hand strength to control a DE, you shouldn't be shooting it.

And if you can't consistently hit what you're aiming, you shouldn't be shooting it.

And yes, DE, that's whats happened to all my friends who got overpowered guns too. They just wanted something big and badass, not something that would actually be a good personal defense weapon. Especially since half of them are using it in their homes, where a shotgun would be far better.

I want people like Elmo to have guns.


I'm assuming you didn't read my next post where I clarified that I'm talking about usage, rather than ownership? That I have no problem with people owning whatever guns they like, as well as using them (within reasonable limits) on their own property, but that I have issue with them being carried and used in public?

In other words, I think that at least my state doesn't do enough in either Hunter Safety or for a CCW to ensure that people actually have the ability to use what they are now licensed to carry in public?

There are already laws in place covering my "abilities" with a firearm. If I fire blindly, I can be charged with reckless endangerment at a minimum. Where's the 20 yards rule come from? What if the blind individual wants a firearm only to protect themselves at point blank range? Sure, there's better weapons for this, but how do we get to say that they are not allowed to own a specific tool because they are blind? I get not having the privilege to drive on public roads, but they can still ride on them. They can still own a car. Laws should govern how they use it, not whether they can own it.

What if they just want to be collectors and don't intend to use it? Why should they be cut out of the market for this? What if they want to be a dealer? I don't see being blind as sufficient cause to prevent this.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:23 am 
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shuyung wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
I can't speak for Aizle, but personally, I make no such assumption about firearm owners generally. A guy who fires his gun for practice and/or fun on his 1/4 acre lot in a suburb, though? Yep, that guy's an irresponsible dipshit.

So then, A) what percentage of the firearm population does "that guy" represent and, B) we already have "reckless discharge of a firearm" laws.

In my experience, very, very few gun owners would do something like that, and I agree that existing reckless discharge laws already cover it (though I have no idea what the penalties are). I was just taking issue with your statement that you'd be fine with someone doing that.

Incidentally, to avoid confusion, I should point out that I don't hold to the liberal view of the 80s and 90s that gun control needs to be significantly increased. I support background checks and registration (ideally with a ballistics database), but I generally disagree with "may-issue" licensing, outright bans (up to the point where we start talking about bombs, anti-aircraft weapons, WMDs, etc.), and so on.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:43 am 
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So if you recognize that it is unlikely, and that the penalties for negligently doing so are in place, yet you still have a problem with not restricting the opportunity, then you are unreasonably fearful.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:13 pm 
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I'm confused. I'm not sure where we disagree, shuyung, so let me clarify. My view is that, barring exigent circumstances, firing a gun in a suburban, residential setting (i) is a negligent act, (ii) should be prohibited and penalized as such and (iii) in fact probably is prohibited and penalized as such in most if not all US jurisdictions. Do you disagree with any of that?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:42 pm 
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I have very few issues with guns being registered in a ballistics data base, but major issues with gun owners being tied to that registration in any way.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
I have very few issues with guns being registered in a ballistics data base, but major issues with gun owners being tied to that registration in any way.

What are your objections, Rynar?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Like with every other database of subsets of the citizenry, it is rife with the potential for abuse. Governments have no business knowing what private property it's citizens own, especially when that particular piece of property is central, historically, to the freedom of those citizens.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Governments have no business knowing what private property it's citizens own, especially when that particular piece of property is central, historically, to the freedom of those citizens.


Weapons have never been hard to come by for any revolution. This sentiment is an AMERICAN: **** YEAH! canard.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Governments have no business knowing what private property it's citizens own, especially when that particular piece of property is central, historically, to the freedom of those citizens.


Weapons have never been hard to come by for any revolution. This sentiment is an AMERICAN: **** YEAH! canard.

Ownership of weapons more often than not prevents the need for revolution, and prevents crime. And I'm not interested in your thoughtless opinions about what represents nationalistic canards. Post better.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:10 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Like with every other database of subsets of the citizenry, it is rife with the potential for abuse. Governments have no business knowing what private property it's citizens own, especially when that particular piece of property is central, historically, to the freedom of those citizens.

As a general matter, logging people in government databases (or private ones for that matter) always gives me pause. However, we already do it for a thousand different things, so I think it has to be looked at on case-by-case basis. When it comes to guns, it seems to me the potential problems are, in no particular order:

    1. In the event of revolution, it'd be easier for the government to round up the people with the guns.
    2. Governments and/or individual government officials with an anti-gun agenda could pressure or harass gun owners.
    3. It's a slippery slope to further regulation and restriction of gun ownership.
    4. It's a slippery slope to further government monitoring of citizens generally.
    5. Registration requirements are particularly inappropriate when applied to Constitutionally-guaranteed rights.
    6. Errors in the database could result in mistaken questioning, arrests or raids of lawful gun owners.

I doubt #1 would ever be an issue, and if it is, it's not like it'll happen overnight, so there would be plenty of time for people to prepare a resistance. For #2 and #3, once the database was in place, it would be easier to impose recurring taxes, fees, training requirements, etc. on gun owners, so we probably would see more of that sort of thing, but I doubt there would be much in the way of improper "harassment". For #4 and #5, I think the cultural shift toward greater government monitoring is problematic in a vague but nevertheless real way, and I do think a national gun database would further normalize that trend. Lastly, I think #6 is a virtual certainty, and may well lead to innocent people getting killed in no-knock raids.

Having said all that, when tens of thousands of people each year are getting shot in this country, I'm inclined to think that the increased ability to prevent and prosecute those crimes is worth the potential downsides.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:06 pm 
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I could see more of a point of gun databases if we were able to more accurately track ballistics to a specific gun. The error rate is huge, and in most cases, at best, you're going to narrow it down to a model.

There are lots of articles out there on the inherent issues with ballistic fingerprinting, even with modern technology.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Frankly, I think gun databases are the wrong way to approach the problem. I think that licensing is a far better solution. Guns are an inert object, it's the people behind the trigger that are either a problem or not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Which is all well and good until you factor in two things:

- Criminals who are willing to use a gun in the commission of a crime are very unlikely to have obtained that gun legally, and those gun crimes are not ones that can be solved with a database of law abiding citizens, rendering the database useless for it's stated purpose.

- Statistical evidence has borne out the fact that less restrictions and regulations actually decreases violent crime rates.

Your goals may be laudable, but your methods are counterintuitive.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:42 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I'm confused. I'm not sure where we disagree, shuyung, so let me clarify. My view is that, barring exigent circumstances, firing a gun in a suburban, residential setting (i) is a negligent act, (ii) should be prohibited and penalized as such and (iii) in fact probably is prohibited and penalized as such in most if not all US jurisdictions. Do you disagree with any of that?

Aizle's position, which you seemed to be entering in support of, appeared to boil down to firing a gun in a suburban, residential setting should be prohibited. Full stop. No exigent circumstances considered. If you were not continuing Aizle's position, I apologize. Even then, I disagree that firing a gun, barring exigent circumstances, in a suburban, residential setting is necessarily a negligent act. If someone wants to build a shooting range in their basement, that should be perfectly within their rights. They could also build it on a higher floor, assuming they want to go through the trouble of knocking out walls and such. That should only be a matter of building codes, not legality.

Now, someone firing a gun without cause or precautions should be penalized for being an imbecile. But we've already got that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Where did I ever say that there could be no extenuating circumstances?

I'd be fine with someone building a gun range on their property provided it met good safety standards that took into account the fact that they are in a residential area. My entire position is that I expect that people need to be safe with firearms. Sadly, there are many people out there who aren't and can't be bothered enough to learn what those safe practices are, so we are forced to mandate them.

Your position seemed to be one of, "I'm on my property I'll do whatever the **** I want" without regard to the fact that without solid precautions firing a gun (inside or out) in a residential area would present a significant risk to neighbors.

That is the part I have issue with.

Hell, if I could legally build a gun range in my basement, I likely would as I both have the space as well as I hate going to public indoor ranges.


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