The Glade 4.0

Maybe your definition of racism differs from mine, but I don't think a person who hates black people simply because they are black would speak out against the police who beat up on a BLACK person.

So, if Martin had been a white guy in a hoodie, Zimmerman wouldn't have been suspicious, and Martin would still be alive. How is that not racism?

You keep missing my statements that racism isn't limited to hate, so yes, I think we're operating on different definitions. To illustrate what I'm talking about, let me offer some hypothetical scenarios. In each one, imagine that the person in question genuinely has no hatred whatsoever for black people and fully believes that many, many black people are perfectly good, honest, hard-working individuals. Nevertheless, the person in question does the following things:

1. He's a cab driver, and he refuses to pick up black people, because they're statistically more likely to rob him.
2. He's a cop, and he deliberately targets black people for stop-and-frisks, traffic stops, etc., because they're statistically more likely to have drugs in their possession.
3. He's a landlord, and he does his best to avoid renting to black people, because they're statistically more likely to damage the apartment and/or fail to pay rent.
4. He's an employer, and he takes extra security precautions with black employees, because they're statistically more likely to steal things.
5. He's a father, and he forbids his daughter from dating black guys, because they're statistically more likely to cheat on her.
6. He's a city-dweller, and he gets nervous/suspicious whenever he sees black people walking on his street, because they're statistically more likely to be criminals.

Would you consider any or all of the above "racist"? If not, is there a different term you think is better? They're all motivated purely by statistical risk analysis, not hatred, but surely you agree that doesn't make them hunky-dory.

Actually during interrogation it seemed pretty established that Zimmerman would have responded the same if Martin was white. In fact, it seemed like some time passed before Zimmerman even knew what color he was.

I listened to the interrogation tapes and the 911 tapes, and I didn't get the impression he was initially unaware of the fact Martin was black. In any event, I was pointing out that Serino's statement, which Foamy quoted, actually suggests that race was a factor in Zimmerman's suspicion. He stated that African-American gangs in the area often dressed in black and wore hoodies, so when Zimmerman saw Martin (who, obviously, was African-American) walking around in a hoodie, he got suspicious.

"Serino explained to the FBI agents that Asian-American gangs in the community "typically dressed in black and wore hoodies," the report said.
"Serino believes that when Zimmerman saw Martin in a hoody (sic), Zimmerman took it upon himself to view Martin as acting suspicious," the report said.

I listened to the interrogation tapes and the 911 tapes, and I didn't get the impression he was initially unaware of the fact Martin was black..

He didn't call the NEN number for a couple of blocks after spotting Martin, and when first asked, George responded, unsure "He looks black." Then later, after getting a closer look, George confirms, "And he’s a black male." So, there's a few minutes where George didn't know that he was black.

Also, what if Serino's statement had been:

And TM turned out to be an Asian-American? Does that make GZ racist against Asians?

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

You're adding details now, Hop, which obviously changes the calculus and takes the emphasis even further off race. Moreover, you can't ignore the context of the world we actually live in. There are no long-standing and widespread assumptions about guys in blue shirts being criminals. And in any event, reporting someone in response to an APB about a specific crime and a specific suspect description is completely different than reporting someone because there were a few break-ins recently and you think this guy resembles the image you have in your head of the kind of people who might have committed those earlier crimes even though you have no actual witnesses or suspect descriptions to go on and actually just concocted that image in your head purely on the basis of local crime statistics.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

Details from mine:
1) Location
2) Bald
3) Blue shirt
4) Male

Details from police (as outlined by the lead detective):
1) Location
2) Black
3) Hoodie
4) Male

It's ok if the descriptor is ANYTHING except race to you.

I should say, though, that I do think one has to be particularly cautious when deciding whether/how to act on the basis of a racial descriptor that happens to correspond to long-standing and widespread racial prejudices. Everything from conviction rates to reflex studies show that most people in the US, even those with no overtly racist attitudes, have an unconscious bias leading them to be extra suspicious of black people. So yes, when I hear that someone reacts with suspicion to a seemingly innocuous scenario (dude walking down the street in a hoodie while it's raining), and the "suspect" happens to be black...yeah, I'm inclined to think unconscious racial bias was a factor.

Yeah, I heard that slight hesitation in his voice when he first identified Martin as black. I didn't take it as uncertainty, though; I took it as the common "****, I don't want to sound racist" hesitation that many/most non-black people have whenever they point out that someone is black.

The difference, again, is that the details in the first scenario are a description of an actual suspect, while the latter is, in this case, a fantasy image of a generic criminal. There were no descriptions of actual suspects for the prior break-ins, so "black, hoodie, male" is a description that would only have existed in Zimmerman's head, based on statistical information at best.

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

You say that most people have it, fine. Why then do you ignore the other factors investigated and found out about Zimmerman that would seem to help dispel the idea that he acted out of an "unconscious racial bias"?

Basically because I don't think the non-racial circumstances (dude wearing a hoodie and walking in the rain) were even remotely sufficient to trigger suspicion in anyone, even an over-zealous guy like Zimmerman, and because, by his own admission, his suspicion of Martin was influenced by his belief that the prior burglaries had been committed by young, black gangbangers. In other words, there's nothing suspicious about Martin other than the fact that he looks like what Zimmerman thinks the people who committed those other burglaries probably looked like (i.e. black dudes wearing hoodies). How is that not racial bias?

Basically because I don't think the non-racial circumstances (dude wearing a hoodie and walking in the rain) were even remotely sufficient to trigger suspicion in anyone, even an over-zealous guy like Zimmerman, and because, by his own admission, his suspicion of Martin was influenced by his belief that the prior burglaries had been committed by young, black gangbangers. In other words, there's nothing suspicious about Martin other than the fact that he looks like what Zimmerman thinks was told by police the people who committed those other burglaries probably looked like (i.e. black dudes wearing hoodies). How is that not racial bias?

In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin

And the fact that he was wandering around on other people's property in the rain.

FTFY.

Before or after Zimmerman started following him?

Zimmerman:

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:

He looks black.

911 dispatcher:

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]

911 dispatcher:

He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

Zimmerman:

Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]

911 dispatcher:

OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman:

That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher:

He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.[1:03]

911 dispatcher:

How old would you say he is?

Zimmerman:

He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.

911 dispatcher:

Late teens?

Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.

Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.

He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]

911 dispatcher:

Let me know if he does anything, OK?

Zimmerman:

OK.

911 dispatcher:

We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman:

OK.

These assholes. They always get away.

When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]

911 dispatcher:

OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

Zimmerman:

Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.

He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

(inaudible)

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:

OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:

George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:

Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:

What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

Zimmerman:

407-435-2400

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman:

Yeah.

911 dispatcher:

Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman:

Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:

Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK, do you live in the area?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, yeah, I live here.

911 dispatcher:

OK, what’s your apartment number?

Zimmerman:

It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

911 dispatcher:

OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]

Zimmerman:

Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …

Zimmerman:

Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

911 dispatcher:

OK, that’s no problem.

Zimmerman:

My number … you’ve got it?

911 dispatcher:

Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, you got it.

911 dispatcher:

OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]

Zimmerman:

Thanks.

911 dispatcher:

You’re welcome.

Call ends 4:07

Basically because I don't think the non-racial circumstances (dude wearing a hoodie and walking in the rain) were even remotely sufficient to trigger suspicion in anyone, even an over-zealous guy like Zimmerman