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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Most aren't overly worried about it. It just speaks to his general attitude. You're not smarter, you're not harder working, you're just lucky.

You know, in a way, it's actually a very old-school, attitude of Christian humility. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." The old "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants" metaphor works too.


Last edited by RangerDave on Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Most aren't overly worried about it. It just speaks to his general attitude. You're not smarter, you're not harder working, you're just lucky.


Only the problem is that he doesn't say anything even remotely close to that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:29 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Most aren't overly worried about it. It just speaks to his general attitude. You're not smarter, you're not harder working, you're just lucky.

You know, in a way, it's actually a very old-school, attitude of Christian humility. "There, but for the grace of God, go I."


I disagree that this is what he intent. The obvious reason is that he didn't mention God, but more so that he continually referenced people. "There, but for" could also be construed as luck, chance or fate; I don't see that in his words. The only possible "luck" he could be getting at would be the luck involved in place of birth, and I don't see that here.


RangerDave wrote:
The old "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants" metaphor works too.

This is what I think is the least offensive implication of his words, and tend to agree with that interpretation, except that I think that the "giants" he is referring to is "Government".

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:37 pm 
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This will be obama's "invented the Internet"


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Most aren't overly worried about it. It just speaks to his general attitude. You're not smarter, you're not harder working, you're just lucky.


Only the problem is that he doesn't say anything even remotely close to that.


President Obama wrote:
I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.


It appears that he did say something quite close to that. The reference to smart people who didn't succeed, and the reference to hardworking people who didn't succeed implies that you weren't smarter, nor were you harder working. Why, then do some succeed when others fail? His answer is clear: "somebody along the line gave you some help". The problem I have with that answer is, as the rest of his speech goes on to assert, as an American you've benefited from the American society. The items he mentioned are there individually and most often collectively for American's to use. So that makes one repeat the question, Why do some succeed when others fail, if it's not because of intellect, or work ethic, and the resources he cited are available to Americans collectively, why then? I believe the real point of the whole statement is that he wants us to believe that the things he cited are provided by Government, and by implication the only way that the success rate can be "fair" is through more Government.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:56 pm 
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So on the flip side, if we can only succeed through the intervention/aid of others (depending on your ideological view), do we have a collective responsibility for every failure out there? From the crack head to Ted Bundy?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:59 pm 
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We don't have a collective responsibility for anything other than to recognize that none of us are as special as we want to think we are.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Most aren't overly worried about it. It just speaks to his general attitude. You're not smarter, you're not harder working, you're just lucky.


Only the problem is that he doesn't say anything even remotely close to that.

Except, he did. Sure, he didn't *use* the word "lucky." But when you say...
Barack Obama wrote:
I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

Lots of people are smart. Lots of people are hard-working. But only some of those people succeed! What could possibly be the explanation? Obama has rejected the premise that those who succeed work harder or smarter than those who don't... So what's left?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:26 pm 
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He is 100% right. That said, I would feel better about the speech if he had spent a nickel on infrastructure but I know any money he wants to take from me won't be going to repair crumbling bridges.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Most aren't overly worried about it. It just speaks to his general attitude. You're not smarter, you're not harder working, you're just lucky.


Only the problem is that he doesn't say anything even remotely close to that.


Obama wrote:
There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me – because they want to give something back. They know they didn't, look, if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something, there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.


Well, he said, very clearly, it's not because of smarts or hard work. He talks about advantages all the time, which based on what he's saying boils down to the circumstances you were born into, or luck. It may be other factors as well, but it's clearly not smarts and hard work.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
So on the flip side, if we can only succeed through the intervention/aid of others (depending on your ideological view), do we have a collective responsibility for every failure out there? From the crack head to Ted Bundy?


Yes, according to many democrats, and many Christians.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:39 pm 
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You're trying to twist what he's saying. he's not saying that Hard work or smarts are not part of the equation. He's saying it takes more than *JUST* that.

There *ARE* smart & hard working people out there who are not wealthy & successful because of bad luck, life choices, or the right opportunity didn't fall their way.
People who are successful seem to think they got that way because they're so wonderful or brilliant... maybe they got there by theft or deceit... or by blind luck.... or something else.

You're going to tell me that the Kardashians are wealthy and famous because they're so smart & hard working?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:44 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
There *ARE* smart & hard working people out there who are not wealthy & successful because of bad luck,


And nothing President Obama, or any other aspect of any Government is ever going to change that.

He's just hoping you think he can...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Let me try this another way. Who here thinks they are successful, and why are you successful?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Well, he said, very clearly, it's not because of smarts or hard work.


I read it as him saying that neither smarts nor hard work alone will make you successful... and they won't. There are more smart unsuccessful people on this planet than otherwise, same with hard working people.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:13 pm 
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I suspect Obama said what he said, meant what he meant, and communicated what he communicated. Have a trio of tautological observations, if it please you. He spoke poorly and any rationalization of his statement is at best weak. If anything, it's simply an ingrained expression of materialism and evidence that society is post-moral. It probably speaks less about the man, his politics, or administration than the arguments you guys are having do about the fundamental disarray and gelatinous nature of contemporary existence. The United States is sick. The developed world is sick. We have an illness that we can buck. We live in a society that demands the strictest of determinism while science, knowledge, and instinct scream against the rigidity of our lives, desires, and deaths.

If you think success is only marginally dependent on the individual, you will never be successful. If you think the collective contribution of history and contemporaries dwarfs the individual, you will never understand contentment. And, finally, if you think such comparisons are objectively quantifiable without some sort of material reduction, you are willfully oblivious to the ultimate truth of existence: resources are finite; access to resources is more finite; and useful implementation of resources even more so.

Conversely, transactions generally require more than one party, although the parties involved may or may not always be a person. It's kind of curious to here a President demeaning hard work and sacrifice and whatever else it takes to be president, especially a demagogue such as Obama. It's a neat counter-rhetoric for Romney's marketing of Romney's investment and capital management achievements. Both are swords that cut both ways. Both can be manipulated, spun, interpreted ... and neither has substantive value or meaning. It's theatre, and Obama delivered a line poorly.

But we're talking about the fate of the free world and the death of America; we're talking about an unmentioned Depression; capital flight; war; insurgency; political neigh-saying; we're discussing the most important election ever in a country where every election has been the most important. The only things that have changed lie in the society which wills it way forward on gadgets, status, and commodity expressions of worth -- a society so predicated on external validation and social acceptance that we can't see the ludicrous reality of solving problems created by complex, bad policy by introducing more complex, bad policy.

Why don't we have commodity medicine for run of the mill health care? Why don't we have clinics with a flat $25 a visit fee for colds, various mundane ailments, tests, procedures, and preventative medicine? Why do we keep increasing the regulatory cost of healthcare at the expense of access, performance, and safety? And, if the problem is that hyper-marginal risks, such as certain cancers or highly improbable trauma histories or complex terminal or lifelong conditions, are too expensive and require insurance, then we should perhaps nationalize that risk pool instead of one wherein the majority of people have some sort of needs or expense. Let the market solve problems wherein supply and demand are not an issue. Find an elegant way to minimize the cost and distribute the risk for the marginal problems instead.

But we don't, and this really isn't about healthcare; that's just of an example of trying to fix bad policy with more bad policy.

And it speaks volumes about the dissociative waves rippling through our collective knowledge base. Common sense is exceedingly rare; the ability to understand opportunity costs and actual scale is disappearing. The majority of people now think in two dimensional spaces; they live on a cloistered moon in a starless galaxy; they have not seen the blinding beauty of the universe with the naked eye. They can barely see the moon -- a flat object matted against a depthless sky.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Khross wrote:
The majority of people now think in two dimensional spaces; they live on a cloistered moon in a starless galaxy; they have not seen the blinding beauty of the universe with the naked eye. They can barely see the moon -- a flat object matted against a depthless sky.

So, you're saying I should spend the extra 7 bucks to see The Dark Knight Rises in 3-D Imax?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Khross wrote:
The majority of people now think in two dimensional spaces; they live on a cloistered moon in a starless galaxy; they have not seen the blinding beauty of the universe with the naked eye. They can barely see the moon -- a flat object matted against a depthless sky.
So, you're saying I should spend the extra 7 bucks to see The Dark Knight Rises in 3-D Imax?
Yes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Well, he said, very clearly, it's not because of smarts or hard work.


I read it as him saying that neither smarts nor hard work alone will make you successful... and they won't. There are more smart unsuccessful people on this planet than otherwise, same with hard working people.


This. Any other interpretation of his speech is being purposefully obtuse.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:08 pm 
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The goal of progressives equality of output by equality by sameness. The only way to achieve this is to tear everyone down to the lowest point yet they need to see themselves as trying to lift everyone up to the same point (so their ego can survive). The cognitive dissonance allows them to ignore the consequences of their (mostly well-intentioned) policies.

Any person showing outstanding qualities and outcomes is direct contradiction to their goals and beliefs. This highlights their dissonance and so the very idea that there are any unique characteristics in everyone must be destroyed. This is why diversity to progressives means diversity in meaningless ways (ethnicity, race, sex, sexual orientation,etc) but never in ideas (because people have different quality ideas).

Its not just inferiority but the paralyzing realization that they just might be average themselves that usually sparks the beginning of this destructive mental state.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:47 pm 
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The wonderful difference between equality of opportunity and outcome.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
The goal of progressives equality of output by equality by sameness. The only way to achieve this is to tear everyone down to the lowest point yet they need to see themselves as trying to lift everyone up to the same point (so their ego can survive). The cognitive dissonance allows them to ignore the consequences of their (mostly well-intentioned) policies.

Any person showing outstanding qualities and outcomes is direct contradiction to their goals and beliefs. This highlights their dissonance and so the very idea that there are any unique characteristics in everyone must be destroyed. This is why diversity to progressives means diversity in meaningless ways (ethnicity, race, sex, sexual orientation,etc) but never in ideas (because people have different quality ideas).

Its not just inferiority but the paralyzing realization that they just might be average themselves that usually sparks the beginning of this destructive mental state.

it amuses me that the accusation here is of Liberal ego.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Well, he said, very clearly, it's not because of smarts or hard work.


I read it as him saying that neither smarts nor hard work alone will make you successful... and they won't. There are more smart unsuccessful people on this planet than otherwise, same with hard working people.


Exactly what is the standard of "success" and "smart"? Because I know a lot of dumb people who don't work hard and make more money than myself and I consider myself "successful" in the sense that I can put a roof (of some sort) over my head and food in my mouth.

Our perception of "smart" has been distorted to mean getting passable grades in our worthless public education system, which has less and less applicability each day due it being disincentivized to hone skills like basic critical thinking or abstract but fundamentally important ones to civilization like language, and our metric for "success" has come to mean entitlement to the wealth of multi-millionaire small business owners through the Koch brothers.

So yea, if you use those standards, there a metric **** ton of unsuccessful, smart people and it's because society can't come to grips with the fact that, on average, it's not smart and it already has achieved success. ****, I'm a dumbass (I still don't understand Partial DiffEQ which is kind of sad given my discipline) and I make enough money to donate to several smaller charities, eat a steak every now and then, buy a random girl a shot so maybe she'll wrap her lips around my nuts and buy all sorts of stupid gadgets I don't need.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:16 pm 
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You're right. Smart, hard working and successful are all subjective terms. That makes this discussion seem even more stupid.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:27 pm 
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I wouldn't say they're subjective in the sense that we understand their qualitative definition in the context of what was said, but they certainly aren't standardized. That said, consider those three words keeping in mind what Khross said which is just a fundamental principle in simple economic theory about the scarcity of resources and the opportunity costs to develop those resources.

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