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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:33 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:48 am 
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When I was doing Judo one of our female Judoka went to Joshi camp, which is a women's Judo camp. One of the women attending was from that region and recently married. When asked what she liked most about being married she answered in all seriousness (and a very thick drawl), "shoes..."


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:22 am 
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I hear that "white privilege" is doing wonders for them.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I hear that "white privilege" is doing wonders for them.


I'm curious if you also think that because we have a Black president that magically all racism and the achievement gap between the ethnicities is also gone?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:07 pm 
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I'm sure Obama has tons of white privilege because he has stated before that he has eaten PBJ's.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I hear that "white privilege" is doing wonders for them.


I'm curious if you also think that because we have a Black president that magically all racism and the achievement gap between the ethnicities is also gone?


Racism is essentially gone in this country, and was long before Obama took office. There are still racist individuals, but institutional racism is a thing of the past and has been for over 20 years. Any appearance of institutional racism is easily squashed through judicial action, press attention, and public outrage.

The "achievement gap" between ethnicities is completely unimportant. The reason there is one is that there's an achievement gap between socioeconomic strata. More blacks and Hispanics are poor becuase of lingering effects from the past, not because of present racism. A large part of why those effects remain is that poverty tends to be self-perpetuating. People grow up in that environment and never acquire the tools they need to break out, even when those tools are available. Poor education is a perfect example, and it is exacerbated by the tendency to de-emphasize education and ignore it as if no education is somehow better than making the most of a poor one. Another major contributing factor is that minorities in this country are constantly told their problems are the result of racism. This suppresses desire to achieve because they are starting from the assumption that they can't because "white privilege" is somehow going to stop them.

It is positively outrageous that people still try to tie economic disadvantage to race. These sorts of poor people are exactly the sort of people that are being referred to when people talk about "ignorant rednecks" or about "clinging to their guns" (never mind that guns put food ont he table for many of these folks) or about "Fearing the loss of white privilege". If they do, they are right to do so. They have no privileges; what they fear is being swamped under a morass of social programs aimed at urban minority groups that are totally unsuited to the rural poor and which largely regard them as second-class citizens because they don't have the good grace to fit into the "white = privileged minority - disadvantaged" paradigm.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:36 pm 
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I personally don't believe it's possible to still have racist individuals and not have any amount of institutionalized racism.

Some of these racist individuals end up in positions where they get to decide where money will be spent, and the rest of the market has to adapt to that. For example, if a project manager for a major construction company is known to be racist, well, now all the contract labor companies in the area have a huge disincentive against hiring black people.

That said, it's a problem on about the same level as the "problem" of CEO pay, in that it's not a big enough issue that we need Congress to spend huge amounts of time and energy trying to legislate it away.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Racism is essentially gone in this country, and was long before Obama took office. There are still racist individuals, but institutional racism is a thing of the past and has been for over 20 years. Any appearance of institutional racism is easily squashed through judicial action, press attention, and public outrage.

I think you're misusing the term "institutional racism", DE. As I understand the term, it essentially means "systemic" racial bias, which need not involve conscious or intentional bigotry. You seem to be using the term to mean conscious and deliberate bigotry on the part of an institution such as a company or a governmental entity.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:10 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Racism is essentially gone in this country, and was long before Obama took office. There are still racist individuals, but institutional racism is a thing of the past and has been for over 20 years. Any appearance of institutional racism is easily squashed through judicial action, press attention, and public outrage.

I think you're misusing the term "institutional racism", DE. As I understand the term, it essentially means "systemic" racial bias, which need not involve conscious or intentional bigotry. You seem to be using the term to mean conscious and deliberate bigotry on the part of an institution such as a company or a governmental entity.


Which doesn't exist either. The only way people can show it exists is by pointing out that different levels of socioeconomic success across different races exist. This is then called "institutional racism". The argument goes then that it's because of persitent racism that this is the case. It's a circular argument. Racism causes socioeconomic difference which is racism, which in turn causes socioeconomic difference.

It exists only as a redefinition of "racism" in order to make the term remain relevant and keep it's political power intact.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It's a circular argument. Racism causes socioeconomic difference which is racism, which in turn causes socioeconomic difference.

You're right that it's a circular argument, but that's because it's describing a phenomenon that actually is circular and self-reinforcing as a matter of historical fact. Now, that's not to say it's a perpetual motion machine either; there's been a huge amount of progress over the last 50 years. By coincidence, I read a very on-point blog post over at The Atlantic earlier today:

Thinking some more on Mitt Romney's high-handed claim that one in two Americans will vote for Obama simply to better ensure their own sloth, I was reminded of Lee Atwater's famous explanation of the Southern Strategy:

Lee Atwater wrote:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" -- that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me -- because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."

The process Atwater is describing really stretches back to 1790 (sorry if I am on repeat here) when Congress restricted citizenship to white people. Progress has meant a series of fights first over direct and indirect components of citizenship (voting, serving in public office, serving in the Army, serving on juries etc.) and less explicit tactics to curtail access to them.

I think what's often missed in analyzing these tactics is how they, themselves, are evidence of progress and the liberal dream of equal citizenship before the law. It's true that for a century after the Civil War, the South effectively erased the black vote. But there was an actual black vote that had to be militated against, and in the North that vote held some sway. It's worth critiquing how the machine manipulated the black vote in Chicago, but it's also worth noting there was a black vote present, people exercising their own wills and prerogatives.

More to the point, as tactics aimed at suppressing black citizenship become more abstract, they also have the side-effect of enveloping non-blacks. Atwater's point that the policies of the Southern Strategy hurt blacks more than whites is well taken. But some whites were hurt too. This is different than the explicit racism of slavery and segregation. During slavery white Southerners never worried about disenfranchising blacks. After slavery they needed poll taxes and the force of white terrorism. After white terrorism was routed and the poll tax outlawed, they targeted the voting process itself. But at each level what you see is more non-black people being swept into the pool of victims and the pool expanding.

You can paint a similar history of the welfare state, which was first secured by assuring racist white Democrats that the pariah of black America would be cut out of it. When such machinations became untenable, the strategy became to claim the welfare state mainly benefited blacks. And as that has become untenable, the strategy has become to target the welfare state itself, with no obvious mention of color. At each interval the ostensible pariah grows, until one in two Americans are members of the pariah class.

In all this you can see the insidious and lovely foresight of integration which, at its root, posits an end to whiteness as any kind of organizing political force. I would not say we are there. But when the party of white populism finds itself writing off half the country, we are really close.

The point about progress notwithstanding, though, I think conservatives tend to overestimate how far removed race is from the ostensibly color-blind systemic factors that constitute "institutional racism". It's not like all those people who fought against the Civil Rights movement suddenly changed their views or stopped raising their children to resent the uppity negroes and their condescending, liberal allies in Congress when the Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964. Like Atwater pointed out, they just stopped being so explicit about it in public. And here's the thing - many of those people and most of their kids are still around.

Remember Shirley Sherrod? When she was a kid, her father was murdered and the killer acquitted by an all-white jury, her cousin was lynched, and she and her mother were routinely harrassed and threatened by the KKK, including having a cross burned on their front lawn. Well, she's still around, and so are some of the people who did those things, as are their kids. Think those kids were raised to be color-blind? What about all the people (i.e. the vast majority) back then who weren't hateful racists themselves, but were nevertheless fully acculturated to the casual prejudices of the era? We're just not that far removed from those days - basically anyone over the age of 35 either lived through the Civil Rights era or was raised by parents who did. Given that proximity, the amazing thing isn't that institutional racism still exists, but rather that it has diminshed as rapidly as it has.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:10 pm 
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I bookmarked this a while back as I thought it was just a really good read. I urge you to read RD(and anyone else).

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2012/07/17 ... epage=true


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8 Ways Blacks Perpetuate Racism and the Only Way to Thwart It

Posted By Walter Hudson On July 17, 2012 @ 7:00 am In Celebrity Gossip,Cults,Evil,History,Lists,Objectivism,PJ Lifestyle Lists | Comments Disabled


It shouldn’t matter that I, an author with the audacity to select such a title, am black. The arguments presented should stand or fall on their objective merit. Nevertheless, I declare my racial identity at the outset to defuse any prejudice readers may bring regarding the motivation behind this piece. Indeed, it is in part because I am black that the following must be said.

All things considered, blacks and the civil rights culture surrounding them are the most open and prolific purveyors of racism in America. This is an ironic travesty which spits upon the graves of history’s abolitionists and offends all who are committed to a dream of equality under the law and goodwill among men.

Surely, such a claim is provocative. Unfortunately, it is also demonstrable.

In a recent interview with National Public Radio host Michel Martin, the Oscar-winning black actor Morgan Freeman made the odd declaration that President Barack Obama is not America’s first black president. NPR reports:

“First thing that always pops into my head regarding our president is that all of the people who are setting up this barrier for him … they just conveniently forget that Barack had a mama, and she was white — very white American, Kansas, middle of America,” Freeman said. “There was no argument about who he is or what he is. America’s first black president hasn’t arisen yet. He’s not America’s first black president — he’s America’s first mixed-race president.”

This is a new take on Obama’s racial identity from Freeman, who has previously cited Obama’s blackness as the chief motivation behind political opposition from both Republicans in Congress and the Tea Party movement. From an interview with CNN’s Piers Morgan:

… Morgan asked the actor, “Has Obama helped the process of eradicating racism or has it, in a strange way, made it worse?”

“Made it worse. Made it worse,” Freeman replied. “The tea partiers who are controlling the Republican party … their stated policy, publicly stated, is to do whatever it takes to see to it that Obama only serves one term. What underlines that? Screw the country. We’re going to do whatever we can to get this black man out of here.”

Apparently, Obama is black enough to trigger baseless charges of racism, but not black enough to qualify as the first black president. If that makes your brain hurt, you might be rational.

Freeman’s comments are not anomalies. He channels long-held, broadly accepted ideas regarding what it means to be black, the relevance of race, and the claim of blacks upon the rest of society. These ideas are horrifically racist, yet uniquely tolerated.

The tolerance of racist ideas openly expressed by blacks and the larger civil rights establishment is informed by sloppy thinking regarding both race and the role of government in society. True reconciliation requires confronting these ideas with reason. Here are eight ways in which blacks are perpetuating racism, and the one true way to effectively thwart it.

Obama's not black enough for this guy.
8 ) Seeking Racial “Purity”
Individuals or groups who seek racial “purity” are properly condemned as bigots — if they are white. Non-whites are routinely given a pass, and in some cases encouraged to “preserve their culture” through sexual segregation.

Morgan Freeman laments President Obama’s “white mama” and cites her as evidence that Obama is not truly black. This raises a few questions, the first of which is: what is “black”?

At the very least, by Freeman’s standard, having a white mother disqualifies one from being black. (That counts me out, too.) But not all blacks are equally so. Freeman himself is relatively light-skinned, certainly on a global spectrum. Many native Africans are far darker than Freeman, closer to ebony than brown. Indeed, the American black is invariably of mixed race, distinct from African cousins by breeding with whites over hundreds of years. Of course, the same can be said of any race over a long enough period of time. American whites are commonly a melting pot of Norwegian, Swede, German, Irish, Latin, Russian, and any of a dozen others.

That speaks to a critical truth. Race is a social construct of little objective value beyond efficiently communicating an amalgam of physical descriptors. President Obama is black, not because both parents were so, but because his physical characteristics are categorized as such in our thought and language. Beyond that, race means nothing. The notion of racial “purity” is inherently irrational, because race itself is subjective.

Why then should we distinguish Obama as the first black president, or argue over whether he is black enough to qualify as such? What rational value does such a distinction have? What is Freeman getting at?

Given the political context, it seems likely that Freeman desires a president whose blackness more dramatically informs public policy. Of course, a president so oriented would necessarily disenfranchise everyone else. And that’s the idea.

... unless we're the ones doing it.
7 ) Cultural Segregation
Perhaps the most objective metric supporting the claim that blacks prolifically purvey racism is the astounding number of organizations which openly segregate. There are names we have all come to know, from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People to Black Entertainment Television. And there are many others which are lesser known. Consider this list from one of many similar ones available on the web:

•American Association of Blacks in Energy
•The Association of Black Psychologists
•The Executive Leadership Council
•Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies
•National Association of Black Accountants
•National Association of Black Hotel Owners, Operators, and Developers
•National Association of Black Journalists
•National Black Business Council
•National Black Chamber of Commerce
•National Black MBA Association
•National Black Nurses Association
•National Council of Negro Women
•National Coalition of 100 Black Women
•National Medical Association
•National Newspaper Publishers Association
•National Urban League
•National Society of Black Engineers
•Organization of Black Designers
•United Negro College Fund
•100 Black Men of America
Surely, blacks are not the only demographic group which chooses to associate together, and there is certainly nothing wrong with free association. The problem is the double standard. Substitute white for black in any of the above and you would have theatrical public outcry and claims of civil rights violations.

Segregation of blacks by whites is widely regarded as one of the banes of the civil rights movement. Yet segregation is widely tolerated when blacks choose to engage in it. Such an obvious double standard fuels racial animosity rather than soothing it. If the goal of the civil rights movement was and remains equality and inclusion, how does such prolific segregation advance that?

Little do they know one of them is responsible for the systematic oppression of the other.
6 ) Collective Responsibility
Comedian Chris Rock took this past Fourth of July as an opportunity to pimp antiquated racial hatreds. He tweeted:

Happy white peoples independence day the slaves weren’t free but I’m sure they enjoyed fireworks (sic)

Rock, of course, leads a life of distinguished privilege among the entertainment industry’s brightest stars. He has never lived in chains as the property of another human being. Nor has anyone he knows. Nor has any American in several generations. That the philosophical bias of emancipation was enshrined in the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776 is as elusive to Chris Rock as the fact that the men who signed it were not made free by the stroke of a pen. Ideas proceed actions, and the process of crafting government which regards all men as equal under the law continues even today.

Nevertheless, Rock feels justified feigning indigence at a crime to which neither he nor any person alive was a party. How is that possible? He subscribes to and relies upon an irrational sense of collective responsibility.

He is black. The slaves were black. So he is as a slave.

There exist whites. Slave masters were white. So whites are as slave masters.

It’s an elementary logical fallacy which is nonetheless amplified by academics and entertainers alike. It has become a kind of racial gospel, quite literally in the case of black liberation theology. Popular culture is replete with black commentators, preachers, authors, and celebrities testifying to the injustice of slavery as if it happened to them personally and continues to this day.

This offends on two fronts. First, a son is not responsible for the sins of his father. Second, though overt slavery has been long abolished in America, there remain rampant intrusions upon fundamental liberties to varying degrees throughout the world. It is stunningly disingenuous to wring hands over distant history while at best saying nothing about and at worst advocating the many encroachments upon individual rights commonplace today.

In a piece examining black author Touré and the objects of prescribed “spiritual liberation,” PJM associate editor David Swindle asks:

What are his primary liberation concerns in the chapter he titles “Keep It Real is a Prison”? Liberating the black children trapped in inner city schools mismanaged by Democrats and teacher union bureaucrats? Liberating the law-abiding, black families struggling to keep out of the crossfire amidst the the astronomical rate of black-on-black violence? What about liberating the untold numbers of African blacks oppressed by dictators and Islamists? How about all the black women around the world today living as victims of female genital mutilation? What about the black women victimized by gang rape in the Congo?

No tweets on any of that from Chris Rock.

O.J. Simpson was all smiles after his acquittal. Many black onlookers saw it as a victory against racism.
5 ) Masquerading Vengeance as Justice
You can’t have justice without equal treatment under the law. Yet many policy prescriptions and attitudes relating to race explicitly call for the preferential treatment of minorities.

Perhaps the most egregious example is affirmative action. Rather than apply the same standard to all candidates for a given opportunity, affirmative action lowers or eliminates standards for favored groups. This is insulting to all parties concerned, making experience and qualifications inferior to irrelevant political considerations. It is by definition an injustice. Yet is is tolerated and even mandated. Why?

Building on the notion of collective responsibility, affirmative action is sold as social justice. The sins of white fathers deprived black sons of opportunity, it is argued. So white sons must cede their place to blacks. This is not justice in any objective sense. It is an irrational vengeance exacted upon the innocent on behalf of the un-wronged. It is at best a punishment of the son for the sins of his father, and never connected to a demonstrable wrong. What are the odds that a given white person’s ancestor committed a crime against a given black person’s ancestor? To the black racist, it doesn’t matter, because white guilt is collective, as is black entitlement.

Another common way in which vengeance is masqueraded as justice is the rationalization of specific black crime as justified by generalized white crime. Blacks celebrated as O.J. Simpson was acquitted, not because they believed he was innocent, but because he put one over on the Man. Consider this 2007 admission from the blogger of The Black Factor:

For more than a decade, O.J. Simpson has been the Negro that got away. To put it into historical context, O.J. Simpson is the ni**er Whites couldn’t lynch at noon. O.J. was one of the few Black people, who could afford to play the legal system the way Whites have longed played the legal system (Claus Van Bulow, anyone?). And, right or wrong, he walked free. And, many Whites got all beside themselves. As a result, Blacks have been listening to Whites play the crying game every since (sic).

Note no concern for justice. O.J. was a black man getting back at whites for the collective injustices of the past. The object of such a sentiment isn’t to obtain equal treatment under the law, but to turn the tables of history and subject whites to injustice as revenge.

4 ) Loose Accusations of Racism
Race is one of several factors which inform an observer’s subjective judgment, and is not particularly special. What a person wears, how they talk, their posture and demeanor — all have an effect upon what an observer presumes about them. This is particularly true when the observer has to make a quick judgment in an impromptu encounter.

The ability to make snap judgments about another is an integral part of our survival instinct and ought not be blunted by political correctness or cited as evidence of racism. Prejudice, or pre-judgment, is something we rationally inculcate in our children at a very young age. We teach them to beware of strangers. How a person looks is one of the first and most effective means by which we determine them to be strange.

In this sense prejudice is both innate to all persons and appropriate in many contexts. If a woman taking a turn down an alley suppresses her prejudice regarding a gang of motley young men, she risks much unnecessarily.

Prejudice is not inherently racist, and loose accusations of racism based on isolated perceptions of prejudice are premature. Words have meaning, and we have different words to describe distinct concepts. Prejudice, bigotry, and racism are not interchangeable. While prejudice can be innocent and even reasonable in certain contexts, bigotry is the irrational maintenance of a prejudice in light of evidence to the contrary. Bigotry can be informed by a multitude of factors, of which race is only one. Racism is what we call bigotry informed by race.

These distinctions are important in any intellectually honest discussion of race relations. When prejudice, bigotry, and racism are used interchangeably, it is evidence that the discussion is not honest.

3 ) Fighting Irrationality with Irrationality
The consensus that racism is bad does not seem to be informed by a consensus as to why. For many, it seems that racism is simply out of fashion, rather than an objective wrong.

Bigotry offends reason. Sustaining a prejudice about an individual in light of evidence to the contrary does not make sense. It is a rejection of reality, and that is what makes it offensive. Attempts by hand-wringing “progressives” to combat racism with equally irrational assertions compound the offense.

A recent example is the so-called Unfair Campaign, an initiative out of Duluth which was until recently supported by the University of Minnesota. The mission of the Unfair Campaign is to “to raise awareness about white privilege in our community.”

The notion of “white privilege,” as articulated by the Unfair Campaign in the above video, is itself a racist sentiment. To assume that all whites have an inherent leg up on the rest of society is as irrational as assuming all blacks are somehow inferior. Indeed, the sentiments are one and the same, a point raised in this response featuring yours truly.

The University of Minnesota has since quietly removed its support of the Unfair Campaign.

Liberty fosters respect and cooperation.
2 ) Treating Whites as Hostiles Rather Than Traders
All of the above fosters racism because it perpetuates irrationalism in the culture. At worst, irrationalism becomes institutionalized through public policy, wielding government’s monopoly on force toward subjective and therefore unjust ends. As the populace perceives such injustice, animosity is created where it may not otherwise exist, and accelerated where it might otherwise be benign.

The underlying principle is applicable beyond race relations. Under a condition of liberty, where each individual is protected against the initiation of force by another, trust is engendered and people deal peaceably with one another in trade, offering value for value. When strangers meet in the market, they begin with a greeting.

Conversely, when strangers meet in the wild, they begin with a threat or warning. Why? Because they are not otherwise protected from the initiation of force. Suspicion and hostility is fostered whenever public policy treats people unjustly, such as when one race is granted preferential treatment over another. It doesn’t matter whether it’s whites being treated preferentially under Jim Crow, or blacks being treated preferentially under affirmative action, the injustice and resulting cultural degradation are the same.

These civil rights would enslave producers to consumers.
1 ) Lifting Civil Rights Above Inalienable Rights
The term “civil rights” has become sacrosanct in the political discourse. It has become interchangeable with “correct” and a rhetorical bludgeon with which to bloody opponents of “social justice.” To call something “a civil rights issue” is to end the argument. Health care. Marriage. Education. Jobs. All have been evoked as civil rights. In so doing, proponents of a new affirmative action hope to paint their opposition as bigots, because popular sentiment holds that only a bigot would oppose a civil right.

This is another corruption of the language, most egregious because of its effect upon public policy and the way in which force is applied in people’s lives. Not all civil rights are good. In fact, when they are crafted in opposition to the inalienable rights recognized in the Declaration and protected by the Constitution, they are downright evil.

Civil rights are legal grants from the state which can be wholly arbitrary. The inalienable rights of the individual are objectively derived and exist independent of the state. Good civil rights support inalienable rights. For instance, voting is a civil right which compliments the inalienable rights of the voter. Bad civil rights oppose inalienable rights. Granting a civil right to health care or any other provision places a burden upon producers to supply their wares without trade, something which used to be called robbery.

Because the civil rights movement of the 1960s was in opposition to institutionalized racism, civil rights have since been associated with decency and justice in the public discourse. That association has been abused to promote all manner of wrong. The potential exists to make a civil right out of anything. In fact, the claim of a slave owner over his “property” in a state with legal slavery would be a civil right. A hammer might be used to bash in someone’s head as readily as it may pound a nail. Likewise, civil rights may be crafted for ill as readily as for good.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. dreamed of a world where people were treated equally under the law, and judged by one another according to the content of their character. Such a world requires the condition of liberty, where people may only deal with each other in trade, not by force. Absent the fear and distrust which manifest in a system of political favoritism, people are incentivized to deal with each other respectfully. Free association can never deprive anyone of anything. Force can, however, and therefore ought to be removed from human relationships. That’s what proper government does. True concern for racial equality can only manifest in a vigorous defense of individual rights. Those who mindlessly seek civil rights in opposition to objectively derived individual rights seek tyranny, not equality, and deserve to be regarded as the agitators they are.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Racism is essentially gone in this country, and was long before Obama took office. There are still racist individuals, but institutional racism is a thing of the past and has been for over 20 years. Any appearance of institutional racism is easily squashed through judicial action, press attention, and public outrage.

I think you're misusing the term "institutional racism", DE. As I understand the term, it essentially means "systemic" racial bias, which need not involve conscious or intentional bigotry. You seem to be using the term to mean conscious and deliberate bigotry on the part of an institution such as a company or a governmental entity.


Which doesn't exist either.


Institutional racism absolutely exists. Scholarship eligibility, minority business enterprise policy, affirmative action, black history month, and so on.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:31 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
I personally don't believe it's possible to still have racist individuals and not have any amount of institutionalized racism.

Some of these racist individuals end up in positions where they get to decide where money will be spent, and the rest of the market has to adapt to that. For example, if a project manager for a major construction company is known to be racist, well, now all the contract labor companies in the area have a huge disincentive against hiring black people.

That said, it's a problem on about the same level as the "problem" of CEO pay, in that it's not a big enough issue that we need Congress to spend huge amounts of time and energy trying to legislate it away.


Yeah, if he's cartoonishly open about it, there might be some minor disincentive. Not a huge one by any stretch, since there is a far large incentive to ignore KKK-CEO's attitude because of the possible consequences of discriminatory hiring. In fact, there's an even bigger incentive to be scrupulously fair than normal, since an openly racist CEO would attract racism watchdogs like flies to honey.

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You're right that it's a circular argument, but that's because it's describing a phenomenon that actually is circular and self-reinforcing as a matter of historical fact.


It's a circular argument because it uses circular, and thus fallacious reasoning. Not because it describes a circular phenomenon. A circular phenomenon is not an excuse to use circular reasoning.

The circular phenomenon in question is the poverty cycle. Racism can create the poverty, and reinforce it, but the existence of the poverty cycle does not require active racism. To show that, a pattern of significantly discriminatory practice that is presently ongoing must be shown. Racial disparity isn't evidence of it; that's the circular reasoning.

Because poverty is self reinforcing, the existence of additional factors reinforcing it must be shown independently. Racism isn't necessary to explain poverty, nor even racial disparity in terms of poverty. Past racial practices plus self-perpetuating poverty can adequately explain current disparities all by themselves; present racism is unnecessary. It therefore must be shown by direct evidence of actual racist practices that are widespread enough to be meaningful. In point of fact, these don't exist. They can't survive the social or legal environment. That's why people resort to "institutional" racism; it's a way of simply assuming racism exists, using it to explain the racial disparity, then turning around and using the disparity to justify claims of "institutional racism", while relying on the fear of others of being called racists to avoid light being brought to this nonsense.

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Now, that's not to say it's a perpetual motion machine either; there's been a huge amount of progress over the last 50 years. By coincidence, I read a very on-point blog post over at The Atlantic earlier today:<snip lengthy article>


That article is more about the obsession with making everything about race than anything else. The reason that tactics supposedly aimed at "surpressing black citizenship" enveloped non-blacks was that a lot of these "Tactics" especially after 1964, were not about suppressing blacks, but about other social issues entirely. It never seems to occur to the left that a rural poor white person might be opposed to the policies of the left because they are focused excessively on urban populations, and are inappropriate or actually harmful in rural areas. It never occurs to them that a parent might object to busing students to achieve integration because they see no reason their kid should need to be on a bus for an hour and a half every. It never occurs to them that their gun control measures are opposed because rural poor people might need guns to defend themselves when their county is too poor to hire deputies and to put food on the table. It never occurs to her that constantly telling rural poor whites they are ignorant racist redneck bible thumpers might alienate them, especially when the poor of appalachia are lumped in with the past racism of the Deep South simply because of being rural and white.

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The point about progress notwithstanding, though, I think conservatives tend to overestimate how far removed race is from the ostensibly color-blind systemic factors that constitute "institutional racism". It's not like all those people who fought against the Civil Rights movement suddenly changed their views or stopped raising their children to resent the uppity negroes and their condescending, liberal allies in Congress when the Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964. Like Atwater pointed out, they just stopped being so explicit about it in public. And here's the thing - many of those people and most of their kids are still around.


On the contrary, this explains why not just liberals, but even conservatives tend to wildly overestimate factors that constitute "institutional racism". Partly because "institutional racism" is, if it is not quantifiable discrimination, so nebulous as to be a worthless term to begin with, but also because this is an absolutely pathetic argument that racism is a meaningful force in this country.

1964 was almost 50 years ago. No, people did not magically change their attitudes in 1964. That, however, is irrelevant. The children in question were not raised in an environment of legalized segregation and discrimination. Neither were their children. Regardless of what attitudes the parents of 1964 may have passed on, the simple fact is that whatever those attitudes were has been diluted by 50 years of visible progress. Furthermore, they were hardly universal to whites at the time to begin with. We're talking about the country as a whole, not just the South.

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Remember Shirley Sherrod? When she was a kid, her father was murdered and the killer acquitted by an all-white jury, her cousin was lynched, and she and her mother were routinely harrassed and threatened by the KKK, including having a cross burned on their front lawn. Well, she's still around, and so are some of the people who did those things, as are their kids. Think those kids were raised to be color-blind? What about all the people (i.e. the vast majority) back then who weren't hateful racists themselves, but were nevertheless fully acculturated to the casual prejudices of the era? We're just not that far removed from those days - basically anyone over the age of 35 either lived through the Civil Rights era or was raised by parents who did. Given that proximity, the amazing thing isn't that institutional racism still exists, but rather that it has diminshed as rapidly as it has.


Except that we are very far from that era, and age 35 isn't even close to the cutoff. If you're 50, you were born in the civil rights era. If you're 60, you lived through it in middle childhood.

It's not amazing at all that institutional racism has diminished. It's the opposite. It's amazing that anyone holds onto traditional racist attitudes in view of their complete irrelevancy today. It really doesn't matter if people were raised to be color-blind or not; you cannot have lived through the past 35-50 years and seriously think that discrimination has a chance in hell of being acceptable in this country.

This argument appealing to southern racism in the 1960s illustrates just how utterly pathetic the assertion of institutional racism really is. It requires excessive focus on the region of the country most favorable to an argument of racism, it relies on nebulous assumptions about a vaguely-defined class of "racists" living in that area at the time, and highly questionable assumptions about their descendants. It does not have a hint of actual evidence of meaningful racism: actual discriminatory practices, unfair behaviors, or anything like that.

Leaving aside the incredible prevalence of reverse discrimination that could be opposed to any actual example of anti-black discrimination that might turn up, the simple fact is these arguments are essentially a concession of the point: racism is not a meaningful source of disadvantage to blacks.

The left has hung its hat entirely on opposing racism and other discrimination. You wanted to talk about how southern whites were raised by racist parents? How about everyone that's been raised to simply assume racism is a major, active force. I grew up with that. I heard my entire school career about "discrimination" and "racism" and so forth and it was evident when I was 12 that it was already a crock of **** in 1987. People have lived with this idea of nebulous "Racism" their entire lives, and progress is either entirely ignored, or its minimized and po-poohed because not having the racism arrow in the quiver would mean the left would have no political strategy at all.

Meanwhile, the poorest county in America is ignored because confronting it means confronting the reality that "racism" in this country no longer has meaning, and relies on an "institutional racism" that is nothing more than unproveable, nebulous "systemic bias".

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I like how you can just boil everything down to "socio-economic differences," as if people who study these issues don't know how to control for socio-economic status in their studies. That's like, the first step for any study looking into issues of racial disparity.

Here's a few easy examples of institutionalized racism.

When submitting resumes with the same qualifications to employers, resumes containing "white" names are 50% more likely to get callbacks than those with "black" names. Source. I think there are many similar studies out there confirming this.

Or how about all the studies showing that blacks who are convicted of the same crimes as whites receive harsher sentences? They're more likely to be sent to prison, and are given longer sentences. They control for crime, area, criminal history, and all that. Here's one source

Anyway, these are just the most well-known ones I've heard of, and they seem pretty clear cut to me. I think it's ridiculous to say that racism is history and there is no institutionalized racism in this country. I don't agree that we need the legislate things like affirmative action to correct it, but it definitely exists.


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I've seen that study before, Amanar, and the first thing I always wonder is whether Laqwandaa gets callbacks at a higher or lower rate than Rainbow. It would be interesting to see whether people are racist or simply prejudiced against people with stupid parents.

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Amanar wrote:
When submitting resumes with the same qualifications to employers, resumes containing "white" names are 50% more likely to get callbacks than those with "black" names. Source. I think there are many similar studies out there confirming this.





My curiosity to that is what the number of applicants of each race are. If 100 blacks and 100 whites apply, maybe something is there. If it's 75 whites and 25 blacks...then what's the issue? Also, I know plenty of black Freds, Anthonys, Steves, Roberts...wouldn't that skew a study?

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RangerDave wrote:
It's not like all those people who fought against the Civil Rights movement suddenly changed their views or stopped raising their children to resent the uppity negroes and their condescending, liberal allies in Congress when the Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964. Like Atwater pointed out, they just stopped being so explicit about it in public. And here's the thing - many of those people and most of their kids are still around.

<snip>

We're just not that far removed from those days - basically anyone over the age of 35 either lived through the Civil Rights era or was raised by parents who did. Given that proximity, the amazing thing isn't that institutional racism still exists, but rather that it has diminshed as rapidly as it has

I hear you. But the cultural movement toward racial equality was fought on more than just the home front. Schools and television were and are saying that all people are truly equal. Kids can recognize hypocrisy in parents who may repeat the pledge "with liberty and justice for all" but then curse "those damn niggers" in the next breath. Upon reaching teens and college years, this becomes a rallying point for the young generation to rebel. To me, it seems it is progressing as we would expect for a people truly concerned with equality, political disagreements notwithstanding.

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Amanar wrote:
I like how you can just boil everything down to "socio-economic differences," as if people who study these issues don't know how to control for socio-economic status in their studies. That's like, the first step for any study looking into issues of racial disparity.


I think that the evidence is fairly strong that these people don't know how to control properly for other factors, or more likely that they do make an attempt but that the controls are inadequate. A good example is their discussion of the "trial penalty" in your second link. The assertion is made that blacks are more likely than whites to get a harsher sentence by opting for trial than they would at plea-bargain, but fails to take into account different decision-making factors. Blacks are more likely than whites to take a poor or hopeless case to trial in the first place, which in turn is because blacks are more likely to be poor and poorly educated and thus more likely to have poor risk-assessment and critical thinking skills. Another example is the Maryland death-penalty assessment. It points out at first that there was no disparity found between blacks receiving the death sentence versus whites, but then goes on to claim white victims are far more likely to have their killer sentenced to death than black ones. This simply assumes racial bias, and ignores the fact that there may be significant differences in the typical circumstances of the killings, and those in turn may be traceable to economic disparity.

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Here's a few easy examples of institutionalized racism.

When submitting resumes with the same qualifications to employers, resumes containing "white" names are 50% more likely to get callbacks than those with "black" names. Source. I think there are many similar studies out there confirming this.


Link is unavailable.

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Or how about all the studies showing that blacks who are convicted of the same crimes as whites receive harsher sentences? They're more likely to be sent to prison, and are given longer sentences. They control for crime, area, criminal history, and all that. Here's one source


First of all, the study relies heavily on data from studies that range back as far as 1976. This is one of the biggest problems with assertions of "institutional racism"; the temptation to look at the time period from about 1965 to 1985 and try to use that as evidence of the state of things now. Even data from the 1990s is anywhere from 13 to 22 years old; enough time for significant generational turnover. Third, the study admits that even in those time periods, racial discrimination was far from uniform across the states or at the Federal level.

Despite the study's insistence to the contrary in its introduction, it really doesn't seem to control much for economic or educational differences at all. It also does not control for cultural differences. Blacks have been told they are victims of racism over and over and over and when black defendents actually get into the courtroom, this often works against them. Poor blacks with poor educations are likely to convince themselves that they are there only because of racism and if they just insist on their innocence long enough, they will eventually find some judge or jury that will see that. This contributes to everything from poor choices about accepting plea bargains, to obnoxious behavior in court, to body language that indicates a lack of seriousness in the proceedings.

These things are common to poor white urban defendants as well, but again, the economic disparity means that poor urban defendents that are likely to have disadvantageous decision-making skills and poor courtroom behaviors are disproportionately black.

There's also the fact that simple ability to post bond makes a big difference in conviction rate. A person out on bond can go find witnesses and is much more able to assist in their own defense. Necessarily, people with more money can more easily post bond. Blacks are more often poor and thus as a group find it harder to post bond.

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Anyway, these are just the most well-known ones I've heard of, and they seem pretty clear cut to me. I think it's ridiculous to say that racism is history and there is no institutionalized racism in this country. I don't agree that we need the legislate things like affirmative action to correct it, but it definitely exists.


I think that the assertion that it still exists is absurd. I think most of the "controls" that are placed in these studies are laughably ineffective. In some case, they are nonexistent because even controlling for the factor would be decried as "racism".

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Nitefox wrote:
Amanar wrote:
When submitting resumes with the same qualifications to employers, resumes containing "white" names are 50% more likely to get callbacks than those with "black" names. Source. I think there are many similar studies out there confirming this.





My curiosity to that is what the number of applicants of each race are. If 100 blacks and 100 whites apply, maybe something is there. If it's 75 whites and 25 blacks...then what's the issue? Also, I know plenty of black Freds, Anthonys, Steves, Roberts...wouldn't that skew a study?


I think the assertion that names can be clearly "white" or "black" is silly. Some names, like Laqwandaa are clearly matched to a particular race, but is Rubin a black man, a white who is likely to be Jewish, or a Hispanic man? It can very easily be any of those.

I also doubt very much that in these studies, an identical resume and identical job opening was used for all of the names in question.

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Sorry the link stopped working. Here's another link to the same study. Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination.

They list the names used towards the end of the study. There's nothing retarded like "Rainbow." In fact they directly address your "discriminate against people with stupid parents" idea Kaffis, using census records for the names they chose to determine their mother's average education level (p. 1008). The names were also randomly assigned to resumes, so the quality of the resumes themselves shouldn't have affected the outcome.

How does the fact that many black people have "white" names change anything? The fact of the matter is employers are discriminating against applicants with certain names, names that happen to be associated with black people. How is that okay? How does your name, something you have no control over, affect your ability to be a good employee?


The fact of the matter is you guys will do anything to explain away any racial discrimination in this country that doesn't fit with your narrative of racism being a thing of the past. A study comes up that you haven't even seen or read and immediately it's, "well, they probably didn't take this into account." Yes, how convenient that every study that threatens your world view is flawed. Meanwhile, you embrace alternative explanations that are baseless conjecture (like Diamondeye's "black people convince themselves they are only on trial because of racism and so they plead innocent instead of not guilty").

So let me put it this way. What evidence do you guys have that racism is dead? What evidence do you have that there is no subtle racial discrimination underlying our lives today? Have any studies you would like me to look at? Or are you just going to say that because it's no longer socially acceptable to go around calling people niggers, racism doesn't exist.


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Amanar wrote:
How does the fact that many black people have "white" names change anything? The fact of the matter is employers are discriminating against applicants with certain names, names that happen to be associated with black people. How is that okay? How does your name, something you have no control over, affect your ability to be a good employee?


Besides the fact that the study itself admits employers may not be looking at names at all? How does the fact that many blacks have "White" names affect things? Well, because the study is not representative of the black population as a whole if it relies on "black names" to identify the resumes. These problems are spoken about in the link you cited, they aren't something I invented. They are discussed on page 8, under "weaknesses of the experiment."

Furthermore, footnote 20 on page6 notes that they "tried to use more white sounding last names for white first names and more black sounding last names for black names" but their selection of these names is laughable. There are almost twice as many white last names as black last names, and every one of the white last names is Irish or Anglo-Saxon. There are no Modselewskis, or Fanatuzzis, or Schmidts, or Andropolouses among tose names, and the black-sounding last names include at least 2 (Jones and Williams) that are so prevalent that any racial connotation they have is tenuous at best.

Finally, the study ignores businesses that ask for an in-person appearance.

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The fact of the matter is you guys will do anything to explain away any racial discrimination in this country that doesn't fit with your narrative of racism being a thing of the past. A study comes up that you haven't even seen or read and immediately it's, "well, they probably didn't take this into account." Yes, how convenient that every study that threatens your world view is flawed. Meanwhile, you embrace alternative explanations that are baseless conjecture (like Diamondeye's "black people convince themselves they are only on trial because of racism and so they plead innocent instead of not guilty").

So let me put it this way. What evidence do you guys have that racism is dead? What evidence do you have that there is no subtle racial discrimination underlying our lives today? Have any studies you would like me to look at? Or are you just going to say that because it's no longer socially acceptable to go around calling people niggers, racism doesn't exist.


Except that we aren't "explaining away things that threaten our worldview." We're pointing out that these studies are concocted with a particular worldview in mind. In fact, it's the other way around; people who claim racism is a significant force will do almost anything to keep it that way.

Look at your study regarding the justice system. It toots its own horn in the beginning by claiming that older studies assumed racial bias and then went looking for evidence to support that, but that studies in the previous 20 years to 2005 had changed to ask "what effect does race have on the justice system?" While this is an improvement, it's still an excessive focus on race. The question should be "what factors, other than the crime itself, affect how defendants are treated and sentences are passed?"

Furthermore, your study admits that any racial bias is not systemic to the whole country, but rather varies from state to state.

As for "not reading", I have, in fact, read both of these studies before. You're just making bullshit assumptions.

In regards to the idea that the assumption that the system is racist doesn't play a part in black thinking, that is absolutely laughable. We are bombarded constantly with messages about how racist everything is, about how a black person has practically no hope if charged with a crime. Are you seriously claiming that these messages have not been internalized? It is absolutely laughable that RD can claim that people grew up with racist parents and thus racism must persist, and then you can turn around and ridicule the idea that the constant message that they are victims of racism has no effect on blacks. Yes yes, you're not responsible for what he posts. Yet I doubt very much that you actually disagree with that sentiment.

Anyhow, back to the study.

As I said, it, as is typical, goes looking for racial problems, just with less of an overt assumption about them. Yet no mention whatsoever is made of the fact that whites are vastly more likely to be rural poor, where as blacks are far more likely to be urban poor.

rural crime is not urban crime

Gang membership is a major demographic difference between whites and blacks

Blacks comprise 3 times as large a portion of gang members as whites.

The assumption these studies make: that whites and blacks are committing the same types of crimes and under generally the same circumstances, is simply asinine. They may control for sex, age, and economic status but they do a piss-poor job of considering other factors such as rural versus urban versus suburban, gang membership, and typically completely ignore racial groups other than whites or blacks

The fact of the matter is that social science is not really capable right now of making the determinations people want it to make. It tends to be driven by intellectuals with preconceived notions, and the number of factors involved are simply too complicated.

What about the likelyhood of various racial groups to report for jury duty? Much is made of how many whites versus how many blacks appear on particular juries but data on the prevalence of races in the people that actually show up for selection is suspiciously absent.

It is also left unspoken what the race of the judges, attornies, and police involved are. The tendency is to leave that to the imagination; simply assuming that they must be white.

As for this nonsense:

Quote:
What evidence do you guys have that racism is dead? What evidence do you have that there is no subtle racial discrimination underlying our lives today? Have any studies you would like me to look at? Or are you just going to say that because it's no longer socially acceptable to go around calling people niggers, racism doesn't exist.


This is just demands to prove a negative. Your last line is particularly hilarious. No one has said that there are no racists; what's been pointed out is that "institutional racism" doesn't exist as a meaningful force. There is an endless list of discriminatory practices that favor minorities and yet people still try to insist that "institutional racism" favors whites.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The positive assertion at play happens to be: "Systemic, institutional racism still exists at sublimated levels in the United States."

That's a 1 sentence paraphrase of your argument in this thread, Amanar. Last I check, positive assertions require you to demonstrate proof. A single, non-conclusive and methodologically flawed studied does not do so; the continued assertions of ethically compromised groups (as in groups whose funding and livelihood derive from continuing to assert the above condition) do not do so; and the studies of those sociologists who might have evidence against your assertion are likely found in academic journals most of your respondents won't bother to go to a library to read.

So ...

Ethnocentrism and racism are not unique to White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants. They are not behaviors unique to an over-ascribed and excessively broad label whose diaspora extends pretty much everywhere.

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Sorry, by "stupid parents" I wasn't referring to level of education, Amanar. I was referring to parents willing to saddle their child with a name that will cause them difficulty (whether it's being picked on for having an unusual name, or being discriminated against for having an unusual name), regardless of their ethnicity.

I chose Rainbow to indicate that well-educated but completely lacking in common sense people can choose stupid names, too, as represented by the stereotypical hippie mother or whatever it is that ends up with the stranger names I always associate with California.

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I went to school with a girl named Chaquita(like the banana).

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