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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:13 am 
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The King
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I didn't say it was your go-to source, I just stated that what you said sounded like something they would say. The thing you should be more worried about is that if what you say is true and you don't pay attention to Chris and MSNBC that much, you certainly can come off sounding just like them at times.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:21 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:29 am 
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FarSky wrote:
I miss Clinton.


I never thought I'd say this... but I kinda do too :(

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:39 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Uh, basically every press conference where he's taken questions, every town-hall Q&A from the 2008 campaign, every random campaign stop where he talks to members of the public....
Video please.

Sorry, don't really care enough to go find a bunch of YouTube links for you. To be clear, though, are you really saying that, absent video evidence to the contrary, you believe Obama either uses a teleprompter or otherwise prepared remarks for all those events (even though he obviously can't know in advance what questions he'll get) or that he sounds like a blithering idiot in all of them? That a guy who you acknowledge is articulate and effective in prepared remarks, who's been in electoral politics for a decade and spent years before that doing community-level activism, is incapable of effectively going off-script when speaking? Seriously?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:43 am 
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I am saying that every speech I have ever seen Obama give has involved a Teleprompter or him looking down at speaker notes and raising his right hand with a Bill Clinton style thumbs up. You are claiming that is not the case and that he does it all the time but cannot produce any evidence to the contrary.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 am 
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RD wrote:
He said he wouldn't support any tax cut that added to the deficit. He repeatedly affirmed the need for federal regulations.


That's what I'm talking about. He has repeatedly said these two items over and over and over.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:54 am 
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The impression that I got from the debate, watching it with some beers and a friend of mine, was that Romney wasn't really answering very many of the actual questions. That was my biggest takeaway.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Müs wrote:
FarSky wrote:
I miss Clinton.


I never thought I'd say this... but I kinda do too :(


Me too.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:05 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
I miss Clinton.

As someone who is 3 years older than you are, please tell me what impact the Clinton administration had on twelve year old you.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
That's what I'm talking about. He has repeatedly said these two items over and over and over.

Sure, but emphasis matters. For example, there's a big difference in emphasis between these two statements:

Romney at the debate wrote:
Regulation is essential. You can't have a free market work if you don't have regulation. As a business person, I had to have — I needed to know the regulations. I needed them there. You couldn't have people opening up banks in their — in their garage and making loans. I mean, you have to have regulations so that you can have an economy work. Every free economy has good regulation. At the same time, regulation can become excessive.

<cross talk>

It can become out of date. And what's happened in — with some of the legislation that's been passed during the president's term, you've seen regulation become excessive and it's hurt the — it's hurt the economy. Let me give you an example. Dodd- Frank was passed, and it includes within it a number of provisions that I think have some unintended consequences that are harmful to the economy....I would repeal it and replace it. You — we're not going to get rid of all regulation. You have to have regulation. And there's some parts of Dodd-Frank that make all the sense in the world.

Romney's website (reflecting his stump speeches) wrote:
Mitt Romney will act swiftly to tear down the vast edifice of regulations the Obama Administration has imposed on the economy. He will also seek to make structural changes to the federal bureaucracy that ensure economic growth remains front and center when regulatory decisions are made. As president, Romney will work to repeal laws like Obamacare and Dodd-Frank that have given bureaucrats unprecedented discretion to craft unpredictable, job-killing regulations by the thousands of pages.

Romney will also initiate the immediate review of all Obama-era regulations with the goal of eliminating any that unduly burden the economy and job creation. And he will impose a regulatory cap on all agencies at zero dollars, meaning that an agency issuing a new regulation must go through a budget-like process and identify offsetting cost reductions from the existing regulatory burden. Other initiatives in a Romney Administration will include a new, cost-conscious approach to environmental regulation; an increased role for Congress in the approval of new regulations; and reforms to the legal liability system.

The debate statement is significantly more moderate than the campaign statement. I mean, hell, just look at the first sentence of each statement - "Regulation is essential" versus "Mitt Romney will act swiftly to tear down the vast edifice of regulations the Obama Administration has imposed on the economy". It's night and day.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Not really. "Regulation is essential" =/= "all regulations are good" or "the current regulations are good/advisable/well-thought-out/essential". Romney is talking about tearing down a vast edifice of regulation for regulationss sake that was a panic reaction after the events of 2008. amazing as it may seem, there were regulations prior to Obama. He gave a very clear example of an ill-advised regulation; the one that demands "qualified" people be given mortgages without establishing what's "qualified".

"We need regulation" is perfectly compatible with "the current regulations are terrible." As he pointed out, we do not want some guy in his garage issuing "mortgages". That does not mean every mortgage regulation is by default good and proper.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
FarSky wrote:
I miss Clinton.

As someone who is 3 years older than you are, please tell me what impact the Clinton administration had on twelve year old you.


He's a better choice than the two toolboxes we have to choose from now. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Okay, Democrats want a Clinton in the White House. Republicans don't want it to be Bill. I have a compromise that makes everyone happy:

Image

They still call it the White House, but that's a temporary condition. Can you dig it, CC?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 pm 
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I will gladly take the king of interplanetary funk. He'll tear the roof off this mutha.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Okay, Democrats want a Clinton in the White House. Republicans don't want it to be Bill. I have a compromise that makes everyone happy:

Image

They still call it the White House, but that's a temporary condition. Can you dig it, CC?


I can definitely get behind that!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Can James Brown be the Hardest Working Vice President in Politics?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Can James Brown be the Hardest Working Vice President in Politics?

I would say, "If you dug him up, sure!" but I am pretty sure they still haven't buried him due to the family fighting over his estate.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:06 pm 
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We want tha funk! Gotta have that funk!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Müs wrote:
Can James Brown be the Hardest Working Vice President in Politics?

I would say, "If you dug him up, sure!" but I am pretty sure they still haven't buried him due to the family fighting over his estate.





I totally forgot he died :(

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:22 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
That's what I'm talking about. He has repeatedly said these two items over and over and over.

Sure, but emphasis matters. For example, there's a big difference in emphasis between these two statements:

Romney at the debate wrote:
Regulation is essential. You can't have a free market work if you don't have regulation. As a business person, I had to have — I needed to know the regulations. I needed them there. You couldn't have people opening up banks in their — in their garage and making loans. I mean, you have to have regulations so that you can have an economy work. Every free economy has good regulation. At the same time, regulation can become excessive.

<cross talk>

It can become out of date. And what's happened in — with some of the legislation that's been passed during the president's term, you've seen regulation become excessive and it's hurt the — it's hurt the economy. Let me give you an example. Dodd- Frank was passed, and it includes within it a number of provisions that I think have some unintended consequences that are harmful to the economy....I would repeal it and replace it. You — we're not going to get rid of all regulation. You have to have regulation. And there's some parts of Dodd-Frank that make all the sense in the world.

Romney's website (reflecting his stump speeches) wrote:
Mitt Romney will act swiftly to tear down the vast edifice of regulations the Obama Administration has imposed on the economy. He will also seek to make structural changes to the federal bureaucracy that ensure economic growth remains front and center when regulatory decisions are made. As president, Romney will work to repeal laws like Obamacare and Dodd-Frank that have given bureaucrats unprecedented discretion to craft unpredictable, job-killing regulations by the thousands of pages.

Romney will also initiate the immediate review of all Obama-era regulations with the goal of eliminating any that unduly burden the economy and job creation. And he will impose a regulatory cap on all agencies at zero dollars, meaning that an agency issuing a new regulation must go through a budget-like process and identify offsetting cost reductions from the existing regulatory burden. Other initiatives in a Romney Administration will include a new, cost-conscious approach to environmental regulation; an increased role for Congress in the approval of new regulations; and reforms to the legal liability system.

The debate statement is significantly more moderate than the campaign statement. I mean, hell, just look at the first sentence of each statement - "Regulation is essential" versus "Mitt Romney will act swiftly to tear down the vast edifice of regulations the Obama Administration has imposed on the economy". It's night and day.


Emphasis? Whaaaat?

It's not a tack to the center unless it's a change in plan or policy. Both of those statements could easily refer to the same plan. If he's PRESENTED his plan using different language, that is not a tack to the center.

You're reaching.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
We want tha funk! Gotta have that funk!


Good campaign slogan.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:38 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
We want tha funk! Gotta have that funk!


Good campaign slogan.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
It's not a tack to the center unless it's a change in plan or policy. Both of those statements could easily refer to the same plan. If he's PRESENTED his plan using different language, that is not a tack to the center.

Wow. I mean...****, I don't really know how to address that other than to say that I think you're giving politicians waaaaaay to much room to be misleading and manipulative by saying different things to different audiences.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:18 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
It's not a tack to the center unless it's a change in plan or policy. Both of those statements could easily refer to the same plan. If he's PRESENTED his plan using different language, that is not a tack to the center.

Wow. I mean...****, I don't really know how to address that other than to say that I think you're giving politicians waaaaaay to much room to be misleading and manipulative by saying different things to different audiences.


No, see that's the problem. He's saying the SAME thing, two different ways to two different audiences.

Yes, it can leave two different impressions as to the importance of it, but it's not a change in policy to say the same policy two different ways.

RD: This glass is half empty. This presents a challenge. We have 20 miles of desert to cross, and this will only get us half way. You will all need to sacrifice a portion of your water to fill the cup so our team can cross the desert.
RD: This glass is half full! We have 20 miles of desert to cross, and we already have enough water to get us halfway there. We just need a little contribution from each of you, and we'll complete this task in no time!

Both say the same thing. It's not a change in policy. It's not a shift, or abandonment of a position in any way, such as the dems are accusing Romney of.


Last edited by Arathain Kelvar on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:25 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Wow. I mean...****, I don't really know how to address that other than to say that I think you're giving politicians waaaaaay to much room to be misleading and manipulative by saying different things to different audiences.


He's addressing the same issue two different ways. The left has this meme going on that because someone on the right is against existing regulations they are therefore against all (or all but the most minimal) regulation. That's the only way you can claim Romney is flip-flopping.

"Emphasis matters" certainly allows him to present the same plan in the light most favorable for a given audience, but it's hardly manipulative or misleading. "Emphasis" does not a policy shift make.

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