The Glade 4.0

Probably (maybe) Acts 4:19, 20 'But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." '

We, as Christians, are commanded to live peaceful, orderly lives in whatever society we find ourselves, obeying the laws of the land, so long as they do not require us to do what is wrong or violate our conscience. Beyond that line, we must obey God rather than men, and we know sometimes we have to pay for that. Sometimes, even the ultimate penalty.

I'm glad to see this; it's been a long time coming. It puts to death the idea that it's only radical evangelicals standing up on the issues presented, this being a declaration from Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelicals. American society has, in a small way so far, begun the process that may lead to denominational healing. True enough, those who disagree on these social issues will (*edit* may) not join us, and that's sad. But I'm glad to see the beginning; in time to come, maybe even they'll come around. All we can do is love them and reason with them and pray for them.

This sums it up perfectly.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

LadyKate:

Man's law is still Man's law. Unless Man's law forces you to sin, it does not interfere with God's law. So, since I know Beryllin can't answer this question, I'll ask you: how does legalizing gay marriage force you to sin?

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Actually, Khross, I'll answer your question with a question: Do you think the Gov't of the U.S. should force Christian parents to seek private schools or home school their children?

Or two: Do you think Christians should be arrested for teaching what the Bible says?

Nothing in current policy forces you do to so. The choice to seek private or homeschooling is still yours.
This doesn't happen. So, why don't you stop making false comparisons? Christians who choose to work in the Public School system also choose to abide by the rules placed upon them. Please, do try again.

And, you still can't answer the question, because what about the law forces you to marry a gay man and have homosexual sex, Beryllin?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesars ...

Nothing about any of these laws or policies forces you to sin. Until such a time as they do, you have zero argument.

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It might help if you remember that Christ is who He is regardless of what anyone says about Him. The misbehavior of humans says nothing negative about Him; it really just illustrates how much we need Him, most especially those of us that like to claim to have all of His answers.



Evidently you don't either. The message wasn't "don't cricticize anything sinful because you're a sinner" it was "don't take it upon yourself to punish others for sin; you're no better". Remember that right after he says that, Christ tells the woman "Go and sin no more."

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

1) I like the word "current" in your post. But then, we're not talking about current, we're discussing what may happen if homosexual marriage becomes the law of the land. "Current". Well said, Khross.

2) Since people have been arrested in Canada and Europe for teaching what the Bible says, it's not a false comparison.

So I pose those two questions to you again.

Yes Monte did mention the AfAm vote. I remember him writing fervently on the topic, mostly in disbelief.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Beryllin:

Your questions have been answered. I am sorry you disapprove of the reality that your not some oppressed minority with no opportunity to exercise choice with regard to your religion. Your first mistake is assuming your know the categorical truth of the spiritual or metaphysical realities of existence. Your second mistake is assuming that I'll let you bait me with red herrings.

So, I ask you once again: where is the forced sin?

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To be perfectly honest, Khross, I am still on the fence about the whole gay marriage thing in regard to my faith. Personally, I see marriage between a man and a woman only. But I'm not gay, so maybe that is why I think that way.
As far as what God thinks about gay marriage and whether or not it is a sin to either do it or endorse it...I don't know. I know I don't like the idea of legalizing it, it saddens me, but I couldn't say for sure that I believe it is a sin.
I believe strongly in lots of things, but there are a lot of things that I am still making my mind up about and forming my own opinions on as an adult and this is one of those issues that I have not quite figured out yet where I stand. That is why I ask so many questions.

Even if I had made up my mind that it was a sin, I don't see how the government legalizing gay marriage would force me to sin. If a situation arose where I had to legally recognize one of those marriages, I might have an argument...such as having to perform the ceremony, or having to provide a service reserved for married couples where there would be legal consequences for not complying...that would be the only situations I can think of where I would be "forced to sin."

I don't think I've really answered your question, Khross, but thats the best answer I have for you.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

You did not answer; dismissal does not equate to answers. Yes or no will suffice on both questions, Khross.

You answered it honestly, which is more than I can say for most. So, don't worry about it.

That said, how would you be forced to sin by recognizing a legal union? A spiritual marriage remains distinctly separate from a legal marriage. What the government sanctions or allows does not alter the religious reality of your marriage with Nitefox, as an example. You married him, I assume, as a testament to your bond and fidelity before god, not because of all the legal minutiae and periphery attached to it. And that spiritual marriage is a separate covenant from the legal results of the legal proceeding.

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A law permitting gay marriage wouldn't force Christians to seek private schools or to home school their children. This response is nonsensical.


This isn't Canada or Europe. And legalized gay marriage doesn't criminalize teaching the Bible anyway, so this is also a nonsensical response.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

May I take it, then, that your answer would be "no" to both questions?

Beryllin:

Your questions have been answered. I'm sorry you do not like the answers; I'm sorry your questions do not provide you the sort of "gotcha" you so desperately want to appear.

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There is no gotcha on the horizon. I asked simple, yes-or-no questions that you have refused to give a yes-or-no answer to. What is it that keeps you from just saying, "No, I don't think Christian parents should be forced by gov't to seek private schools or home-school their children.", or "No, I don't think Christians should be arrested for teaching what's in the Bible."?

It's not that hard, Khross, so why make it so difficult?

Beryllin:

They are not yes or no questions. They are false dilemmas.

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Yes or no, and I'll tell you why they are not false dilemmas. I'm actually trying to have an open, reasonable discussion with you and you can't or won't answer the simplest of questions.

Wait, did I stumble into Bizarro Thread?

FarSky:

Apparently. I answered a couple of his questions, but he didn't like the answers. So, I really have no idea what he wants.

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Riiiiight. You're not trying to spring a "gotcha", you're just refusing to present your argument until your "opponent" meets your demand for an unqualified yes/no response to questions that depend largely on interpretation.

I don't know why you would want me or Khross to engage you in discussion when you quite obviously think we're both stupid.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

Continuing to assert that you answered my questions does not make it so. However, since you (and others) are so afraid, I'll speak, anyway.

The homosexual marriage issue is only a small part of a much larger agenda, including (but not limited to) hate-crime legislation and education.

Hate-crime laws have been used in Canada and Europe, leading to the arrest of Christians for no greater crime than teaching what the Bible says. Are you ok with such happening here? Because it certainly can: witness churches being sued because they refuse to allow their buildings to be used for homosexual marriages. Allowing such usage violates the conscience of those Christians, so they have a choice: obey their conscience before God, or obey the law of man. In other words: Sin, or be sued.

Education is even worse, because it strikes at our children. We are commanded that we "raise up our children in the way they should go" (paraphrased) so any Christian who opposes the homosexual agenda as a matter of conscience before God has a choice if their school district begins teaching that homosexuality is on a par with heterosexuality. They sin if they allow their children to be taught something that is contrary to Biblical teaching. So the choice becomes: Public school vs private school or home-schooling. In other words: Sin, or seek an alternative to public schools.

In a land where freedom of religion is supposed to be guaranteed by the Constitution, those are not choices the gov't of the U.S. should be forcing Christians to make. Allowing homosexual marriage pushes this country further in that direction. I'm sorry you guys cannot find it in yourselves to answer the simplest of questions.

I call shenanigans. Beryllin has spouted such ridiculous tripe in another thread, indicating that if gay marriage is officially recognized, they'd be "pushing the gay agenda on christians." This is complete bullshit. He can say it's pushed on you when they force him to marry a man named bubba and bend over for him. A official policy of "live and let live" is not forcing an agenda on anybody else.




This is a separate (and valid) concern. The fact of the matter is the "bible" is a despicable book that makes Mein Kampf look like a good moral lesson for children. Nevertheless, people should be able to say what they want to say. Freedom of speech demands it. Hate crime legislation needs to end.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Now that's what I call timing.

Beryllin, why do you seek so feverishly to be the victim?

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones