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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
It's not about racism, it's about winning elections for Republicans. These neighborhoods tend to vote Democrat. Race really has nothing to do with it.


Yes, and where exactly would the left be most likely to create fake voters? Oh that's right, in places that vote democrat. They'd be much harder to detect there than a sudden infusion of Democrats in a largely republican area.

The left started all this voter fraud crap with Diebold and the "ZOMG Bush stole the election!" crap in 2000. Now that the shoe's on the other foot, it's not such a great idea all of a sudden.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The left started all this voter fraud crap with Diebold and the "ZOMG Bush stole the election!" crap in 2000. Now that the shoe's on the other foot, it's not such a great idea all of a sudden.

Actually, anti-voter fraud campaigns targeting predominantly black voters has been a Republican tradition since the 60s:

Conservative anti–voter fraud fervor first arose around the same time as two turning points in American politics. The first was John F. Kennedy’s narrow presidential win in 1960, which many Republicans attributed to voter fraud in Illinois and Texas. The second was the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which, by banning discriminatory voting practices, stoked fear in some quarters about the rising power of black voters. During the run-up to the 1964 presidential election, the Republican National Committee launched Operation Eagle Eye, the nation’s first large-scale anti–voter fraud campaign. As part of the program, the RNC recruited tens of thousands of volunteers to show up at polling places, mostly in inner cites, and challenge voters’ eligibility using a host of tools and tactics, including cameras, two-way radios, and calls to Republican-friendly sheriffs.

After this, anti-fraud campaigns became commonplace, but they could backfire, as the RNC learned in 1981. That year, the party hired a swashbuckling 29-year-old named John Kelly to organize “ballot security” for New Jersey’s gubernatorial election. Kelly, who turned up in the state wearing cowboy boots and a 10-gallon hat, arranged to have hundreds of thousands of sample ballots mailed to voters in black and Latino neighborhoods. His team then compiled a list of people whose ballots were returned as undeliverable, and allegedly tried to have them struck from the rolls. This technique, known as caging, is controversial because it can purge eligible voters. In this case, an outdated address roster was used—meaning that an unusually large share of the people on Kelly’s list may have been wrongly targeted.

Kelly and his associates also recruited squadrons of men—many of them off-duty police officers—to descend on black and Latino precincts around New Jersey on Election Day. Wearing National Ballot Security Task Force armbands, walkie-talkies, and in some cases guns, the men posted signs warning in large red letters that the areas were being patrolled. They then stationed themselves around polling places and allegedly tried to stop those whose names appeared on the caging list from voting.

According to a Republican Party lawyer who was on the scene that day, before the polls closed, Kelly hightailed it out of the state in a Chevy Impala, armbands and signs stuffed in the trunk. When the Essex County prosecutor’s office launched a statewide criminal investigation the following week, he was nowhere to be found.

In the end, prosecutors didn’t bring charges—no would-be voters stepped forward to say they had been blocked from casting ballots—but the Democratic National Committee filed a federal lawsuit accusing Kelly and the RNC of violating the Voting Rights Act. To settle the case, in 1982 the RNC signed a consent decree, agreeing to end all “ballot security” programs targeting minority precincts. Four years later, the RNC was caught caging minority voters in Louisiana, an effort that was intended to “keep the black vote down,” according to an internal RNC memo. The DNC filed suit again, and a chastened RNC agreed to a modified decree requiring it to submit all plans for anti–voter fraud campaigns to the court for approval.

But yes, it was the Dem's attempt to get recounts done in Florida in 2000 that got the ball rolling again:

The Atlantic wrote:
At which point, the RNC mostly abandoned its anti–voter fraud programs. While state parties and individual candidates continued to launch scattered ballot-security efforts, national attention to voter fraud faded. That is, until the 2000 presidential election. Tova Wang, who was on the staff of the 2001 National Commission on Federal Election Reform and is now a fellow at the public-policy think tank Demos, says that after Bush v. Gore, political strategists took a new interest in the mechanics of elections. “Partisan activists began trying to alter the rules and tinker with election administration to gain partisan advantage,” she told me recently.

Some liberals began pushing for measures (such as Election Day registration) that would lower barriers to voting. Conservatives, on the other hand, took a renewed interest in fighting voter fraud. A raft of new state legislation followed, including voter-ID laws (now on the books in 33 states) and laws requiring people to show proof of citizenship before registering to vote.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Personally I cannot wait to see how much voter fraud pops up this year. In Ohio they have been pushing very very very hard for people to vote absentee. I've never seen the government push anything so hard, nor so often.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:01 pm 
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The idea that Republicans in 1960 would be interested in targeting black voters, who generally voted Republican at that time since it was still "the party of Lincoln", is laughable.

Even in 1964 it's pretty far-fetched. Most of the leftist portrayals of supposed Republican anti-black efforts hinge on this entirely fictitious idea that as soon as the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed, this massive influc of southern racists took over the Republican party. In point of fact, those people were largely trying to get their own deal going with a third party since they didn't particularly like Republicans either. It wasn't until 1968 and the total failure of George Wallace that they gave up and started going Republican.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:19 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
That's because there is absolutely zero evidence of any impropriety built into Dieold's machines, despite the efforts of the left to find it.


Zero evidence? What about this story? If it's been debunked or something please let me know, I'm genuinely curious.

And forgive us for being skeptical of the "voter fraud" movement, but I think some skepticism is well deserved considering the long history of efforts to disenfranchise minority voters. But no, it's just a "coincidence" now that this effort is targeting minority neighborhoods. Sorry, you're going to have to do a little better than that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:38 am 
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Just to be fair, poor security is not necessarily evidence of impropriety. Incompetence, sure, but not impropriety.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:56 am 
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Amanar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That's because there is absolutely zero evidence of any impropriety built into Dieold's machines, despite the efforts of the left to find it.


Zero evidence? What about this story? If it's been debunked or something please let me know, I'm genuinely curious.

And forgive us for being skeptical of the "voter fraud" movement, but I think some skepticism is well deserved considering the long history of efforts to disenfranchise minority voters. But no, it's just a "coincidence" now that this effort is targeting minority neighborhoods. Sorry, you're going to have to do a little better than that.


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In a video, Roger Johnston and Jon Warner from Argonne National Laboratory's Vulnerability Assessment Team demonstrate three different ways an attacker could tamper with, and remotely take full control, of the e-voting machine simply by attaching what they call a piece of "alien electronics" into the machine's circuit board.

Very inconspicuous to crack the machine open all the way down the motherboard and solder a chip into it. Or are you implying that the people who count the votes would rig the machines rather than simply misreport the results?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:11 am 
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Any electronic device can be hijacked remotely by attaching a piece of "alien electronics" to the device's circuit board. If you have to have physical control of the device in order to violate its integrity, that is not a flaw in the device's own security.

Since pretty much every complex mechanical system has an electronic control system, this means having physical control of just about anything allows you to do wacky **** to it. So here's a crazy idea: Perhaps voting machines should be supervised by a police officer or two at all times? We can make it a black cop and a white cop to make sure that all races receive equal racial profiling and police brutality. (Black and white are the only races in the United States. I don't care what you have to say about various flavors of brown and yellow people.)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That's because there is absolutely zero evidence of any impropriety built into Dieold's machines, despite the efforts of the left to find it.


Zero evidence? What about this story? If it's been debunked or something please let me know, I'm genuinely curious.

And forgive us for being skeptical of the "voter fraud" movement, but I think some skepticism is well deserved considering the long history of efforts to disenfranchise minority voters. But no, it's just a "coincidence" now that this effort is targeting minority neighborhoods. Sorry, you're going to have to do a little better than that.


I specifically said "built in to" Diebold's machines, which was what the big stink was about; Diebold's supposedly making crooked machines to throw the election to Bush. As Coro points out, the ability to breach a device physically and modify it does not mean the device has been designed improperly or with any untoward intent.

As to the history of efforts of disenfranchising minority voters, the fact of the matter is that Republican efforts against vote fraud existed at a time when it would have been to their disadvantage to disenfranchise blacks. The fact that the Republican party ended up with the baggage of the ex-George Wallace types about 1980 or so (you'll note that despite the supposed mass defection of southern whites to the Republicans, they all went for Carter in 1976, and in 1980 and 1984 practically every state went for Regan anyhow, so really it isn't until 1988 that the South became reliably Republican rather than merely Reaganite).

I already addressed the targeting of minority neighborhoods. Those are the places where fraudulent registrations were mostly found, so it makes sense they are where fraud would occur, and they're also where illegal immigrants are likely to congregate. If vote fraud is going to occur, that's where it's going to be because that's where it would be hardest to detect it.

It isn't the anti-voter-fraud people that need to do better. It's the anti-detection people that need to do better than making up hogwash about how hard it is to get a photo ID and pretending any attempt at voter fraud detection on the right is based on closet racism just because a bunch of southern racists 30-50 years ago started hopping on the Republican bandwagon, but mysteriously the left can make up baseless theories about voting machines and turn the entire election process into a "recount till I win" scam and that's perfectly ok.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:13 pm 
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As someone who has worked on the tech side of finance/banking for a while, my perspective is, Diebold is too incompetent to hide election fraud in voting machines. They can't even make a working ATM.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:03 am 
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I had never realized that. I guess I just figured since they are everywhere they must be doing something at least moderately right.


also for whatever reason, that doesn't seem to be the "kind" of voter fraud people are concerned about this go round. We've had ID requirements here in Ohio at least as long as I've been back and eligible to vote. Based on my own limited poll watching it doesn't seem to disfranchise any group substantially.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:07 am 
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What if it could be proven that it scares 30% of legit voters away at the cost of preventing a 1% fraud?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:18 am 
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What if we don't pull hypotheticals out of our ***?

If people don't exercise a right they have because of imaginary fears and a refusal to educate themselves then they probably ought not to vote anyhow.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:21 am 
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Ah... so a de facto literacy test to vote?

Answer the question. What level of voter intimidation are you willing to consider as acceptable in exchange for the piece of mind that someone might not be able to vote twice?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:24 am 
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Some people are intimidated by black people. Should we make it so no black people are at polling places?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:34 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
Ah... so a de facto literacy test to vote?

Answer the question. What level of voter intimidation are you willing to consider as acceptable in exchange for the piece of mind that someone might not be able to vote twice?


This isn't voter intimidation, nor a de facto literacy test. People can have their rights explained to them. They also aren't likely to be intimidated by billboatds if they can't read them.

Your question has been answered, and is based on false premises anyhow.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:35 am 
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Forget percentages; just consider a realistic anecdotal example. Imagine a rew rather large members of the Black Panthers wandering around the polling site in a neighborhood that's predominantly white retirees, talking with each other on walkie-talkies, hovering around the place where voters pick up their ballots and looking over their shoulders at IDs and voter rolls, making challenges on every technicality or minor discrepancy they can find, warning people that voter fraud is a crime, and, of course, focusing most of their attention on the elderly white voters who are (a) most likely to be voting Republican, (b) most likely to have forgotten their ID or let some paperwork lapse, and (c) most likely to be intimidated by such tactics. Anyone not got a problem with that?

And before anyone complains about the fact I selected elderly white people as the targets, note that I did so on purpose, as a way of highlighting the heightened anxieties and power differentials black voters often face given the history around voting rights, law enforcement and (though apparently few people here believe it still exists anywhere outside a Klan rally) racism.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:41 am 
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Your argument:

Billboard saying "Voter Fraud is a crime!" is voter intimidation.

Perfect analogy:

Signs in stores saying "Shoplifters will be prosecuted!" is shopper intimidation.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:43 am 
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If the constable is doing their job they would project their security over the areas it needs to be - same with any other organized group of people.

As long as they don't violate applicable law...fine. If elderly people are intimidated by it so be it - that is their decision to make.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:46 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Your argument:

Billboard saying "Voter Fraud is a crime!" is voter intimidation.

Perfect analogy:

Signs in stores saying "Shoplifters will be prosecuted!" is shopper intimidation.



Yeah this.

Why is that so hard to comprehend?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:50 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Your argument:

Billboard saying "Voter Fraud is a crime!" is voter intimidation.

Perfect analogy:

Signs in stores saying "Shoplifters will be prosecuted!" is shopper intimidation.


What if a chain only puts up the signs in minority dominated neighborhoods, but not anywhere else?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:51 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Your argument:

Billboard saying "Voter Fraud is a crime!" is voter intimidation.

Perfect analogy:

Signs in stores saying "Shoplifters will be prosecuted!" is shopper intimidation.

If only people on a pre-registered list of names were allowed to shop at the store and you might get prosecuted or at least questioned for attempted shoplifting if you showed up at the cash register and it turned out your name wasn't on the list even though you thought it was...and the warnings were mostly posted in stores in minority neighborhoods...and there were groups of mostly white volunteers not affiliated with or accountable to the store standing at the cash register to double check your ID and make sure you're actually on the list and they were mostly focusing their attention on minority shoppers...and there was a long, contentious, even violent history (recent enough to be within living memory of some of those would-be shoppers) of white people and store owners colluding to prevent minority people from shopping...yeah, then it would be a perfect analogy.


Last edited by RangerDave on Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:52 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Your argument:

Billboard saying "Voter Fraud is a crime!" is voter intimidation.

Perfect analogy:

Signs in stores saying "Shoplifters will be prosecuted!" is shopper intimidation.

the law regarding theft is relatively clear and nearly everyone understands it. Voter registration law is more obscure. Creating doubt among a population that is already disinclined to trust authority by increasing and preying upon their fears of authority is intimidation.

The real issue is that this is being done with an agenda. If you want to put up signs everywhere, fine. But targeting regions that traditionally vote Democratic is utterly unethical.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:57 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Your argument:

Billboard saying "Voter Fraud is a crime!" is voter intimidation.

Perfect analogy:

Signs in stores saying "Shoplifters will be prosecuted!" is shopper intimidation.

the law regarding theft is relatively clear and nearly everyone understands it. Voter registration law is more obscure. Creating doubt among a population that is already disinclined to trust authority by increasing and preying upon their fears of authority is intimidation.

The real issue is that this is being done with an agenda. If you want to put up signs everywhere, fine. But targeting regions that traditionally vote Democratic is utterly unethical.



And yet, if a person doesn't take the time to learn the voter laws and requirements...do you really feel that bad about them not voting? Why can't people take some personal responsibility to you know, actually learn the laws and procedures. Why must the left feel the need to hold everyones hand to get things done?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:00 am 
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So you'd be ok with the DNC putting up similar signs at the entrance and exit of every country club?


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