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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
Eh, I think teaching is probably a learned skill. I think most education degree programs probably just don't do a very good job of teaching it, so I agree with the idea that we shouldn't restrict teaching to those with education degrees.

We could take 20 random people, give half of them a 24 hour crash course on teaching (taught by the best teachers we can find), and give the other half nothing. Then we could have each person try to teach a specific concept to 20 random 10 year olds. We'd test the kids before and after to measure their level of improvement, and then compare the two groups of teachers to see who was more effective.

Anyway, I bet if we carried out that experiment, we'd find that those who take the crash course on teaching are more effective. But that's just my best guess.


^ A "24 hour crash course" in education amounts to a list of tips.

You aren't teaching a philosophy or style or anything substantitive in 24 hours.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Amanar wrote:
Eh, I think teaching is probably a learned skill. I think most education degree programs probably just don't do a very good job of teaching it, so I agree with the idea that we shouldn't restrict teaching to those with education degrees.

We could take 20 random people, give half of them a 24 hour crash course on teaching (taught by the best teachers we can find), and give the other half nothing. Then we could have each person try to teach a specific concept to 20 random 10 year olds. We'd test the kids before and after to measure their level of improvement, and then compare the two groups of teachers to see who was more effective.

Anyway, I bet if we carried out that experiment, we'd find that those who take the crash course on teaching are more effective. But that's just my best guess.


^ A "24 hour crash course" in education amounts to a list of tips.

You aren't teaching a philosophy or style or anything substantitive in 24 hours.


I suspect he meant a course on "how to teach". Not anything to do with the subject matter.

Items covered would not be "math", but items such as retention of information when told, vs shown, vs demonstrated, vs when students are involved.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
^ A "24 hour crash course" in education amounts to a list of tips.

You aren't teaching a philosophy or style or anything substantitive in 24 hours.


I suspect he meant a course on "how to teach". Not anything to do with the subject matter.

Items covered would not be "math", but items such as retention of information when told, vs shown, vs demonstrated, vs when students are involved.

My point is that a 24 hour course in "How To Teach" amounts to a tip sheet. You cannot teach anything substantitive about teaching in 24 hours.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:30 pm 
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A typical college course is only 45 hours, I think, but I get your point.

Man, could you imagine the pressure of teaching a "how to teach" course?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:56 pm 
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The majority of my college courses were 100 hours.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:59 pm 
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semesters vs quarters?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:09 pm 
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It takes 48 hours of classroom time to earn 3 credit hours in a semester system. 16 weeks at 3 hours of instruction per week. At least, that's the standard everywhere I've been.

It takes 45 hours of classroom time to earn 5 credit hours in a quarter system. 9 weeks at 5 hours per week of instruction.

2 semesters is 32 weeks. A full-time load per term for semester systems is 12 credit hours.

3 quarters is 27 weeks. A full-time load per term for quarter systems is 15 credit hours.

Semester systems are easier to align with most public education systems.

Quarter systems are generally being phased out in most places.

At a full-time financial aid load, it takes 10 full-time semesters to complete the average bachelor's degree in the United States.

Universities currently receive Federal monies based on first-academic term peak enrollment.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:24 pm 
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I don't know what system my school is classified under but we did 5 weeks, 20 hours a week for 5 credit hours. General ed. classes were only 30 hours for 2 credit hours.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:37 pm 
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5 weeks, 20 hours a week for 5 credit hours, sound suspiciously like an accelerated semester and a Class+lab requirement for those classes which took 20 hours a week.

3 hours per day for 5 weeks = 75 hours. That's pretty much in line with a 4 credit hour "hard science for majors" + 1 credit hour lab to me. You can PM the school if you want; I can figure it out for you based on their Accrediting Agency if you like.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:46 pm 
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Sorry, meant 25 hours a week. 20 hour weeks were night classes, but those lasted 6 weeks instead of 5.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Sorry, meant 25 hours a week. 20 hour weeks were night classes, but those lasted 6 weeks instead of 5.
125 contact hours per term is a rather inordinate number for a single 5 week course. That's a full Carnegie Unit or (10 credit hours).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:26 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Amanar, the problem is that teaching, in my opinion, isn't a skill, per se. It's a personality and mindset.

The skills should be in the actual material. The personality should be what enables people to teach those skills.


Teaching is absolutely a skill. Much like any job having the right personality and mindset help greatly in one's ability, but it's still very much a skill.


Really?

The definitions of "skill" indicate proficiency, knowledge, or competence. These are all measurable things. Since "teaching," according to most teacher's unions, cannot be measured, that would exclude it as a skill.

Personality is not a skill. Mindset is not a skill. Those are the key determinants to teaching. This opinion is backed by the fact that most secondary or primary level educators do not get field-specific degrees, but get education specific degrees. Were the key determinants to teaching success to be hard skills, the majority of education jobs at those levels would require skill-based degrees. As Corolinth has already discussed.


By this logic then, someone who has just started the field of teaching and has no experience should be just as good of a teacher as someone who's been a teach for decades.

Personality and mindset are key determinants to being a sales person as well. Do you also think there is no skill involved there as well? There's a commonality between those two professions. I'll clue you in, it's working with people. Anytime you have to engage with other people in a meaninful way one's personality and mindset become key determnants. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't other additional skills that are necessary to be a good teacher.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
By this logic then, someone who has just started the field of teaching and has no experience should be just as good of a teacher as someone who's been a teach for decades.


Frequently, this is exactly the case.

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Personality and mindset are key determinants to being a sales person as well. Do you also think there is no skill involved there as well? There's a commonality between those two professions. I'll clue you in, it's working with people. Anytime you have to engage with other people in a meaninful way one's personality and mindset become key determnants. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't other additional skills that are necessary to be a good teacher.


It is certainly possible for even a poor teacher to improve with experience, but not through being taught to teach. Even with improvement through experience, the starting point is still the determining factor.

Even if you could actually teach someone to teach, that isn't what education degrees do.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
By this logic then, someone who has just started the field of teaching and has no experience should be just as good of a teacher as someone who's been a teach for decades.


And? This is usually true. In fact, I'd argue that not allowing this fact to come to common awareness is a major component in teacher union opposition to formalized job performance metrics.

Aizle wrote:
Personality and mindset are key determinants to being a sales person as well. Do you also think there is no skill involved there as well? There's a commonality between those two professions. I'll clue you in, it's working with people. Anytime you have to engage with other people in a meaninful way one's personality and mindset become key determnants. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't other additional skills that are necessary to be a good teacher.


Having been both (one professionally and one non-professionally), I can tell you that there are far fewer similarities than you're attempting to imply. Yes, "both work with people." Name a job that doesn't. False analogy fallacy.

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