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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Rynar, what is the largest company that you've ever been an employee of?

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything, but I currently work for a huge multi-national.


Interesting. It just seems that you have very little exposure to the levels of senior management in the medium to large business world. Golden parachutes and frankly the behavior of executives is pretty ubiquitous across the business world today. Certainly there are examples of people who break the mold there, but they are definitely the exception not the rule. Especially in public companies.

The average CEO lasts for 3-5 years at a company. During that time they are focused on driving as much profit as possible so that the stock price goes up and then frankly get out before the house of cards that most of them create begins to fall. The "good" ones pull this off and then point to the fact that a year or so after they left their past company is in the shitter as an example of how they couldn't live without him, etc. It's all about the short term gain, especially for the executives, and the skill that they are all most talented at is knowing when to leave because the ship has started to sink.


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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:39 pm 
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So every large company in the U.S. is constantly on the verge of collapse?

I don't think this is nearly as ubiquitous as you imagine.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
So every large company in the U.S. is constantly on the verge of collapse?

I don't think this is nearly as ubiquitous as you imagine.


Of course not. However to think that those executives aren't doing everything they can to focus on the short term gains of their stock, while protecting themselves, is naive in the extreme.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Rynar, what is the largest company that you've ever been an employee of?

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything, but I currently work for a huge multi-national.


Interesting. It just seems that you have very little exposure to the levels of senior management in the medium to large business world. Golden parachutes and frankly the behavior of executives is pretty ubiquitous across the business world today. Certainly there are examples of people who break the mold there, but they are definitely the exception not the rule. Especially in public companies.

The average CEO lasts for 3-5 years at a company. During that time they are focused on driving as much profit as possible so that the stock price goes up and then frankly get out before the house of cards that most of them create begins to fall. The "good" ones pull this off and then point to the fact that a year or so after they left their past company is in the shitter as an example of how they couldn't live without him, etc. It's all about the short term gain, especially for the executives, and the skill that they are all most talented at is knowing when to leave because the ship has started to sink.


This is certainly not the case in the pharmaceutical industry, where many of the players have been around for a long time. Sustainability is part of the KPIs for any division and is actually factored into the "golden parachute" you guys keep talking about.

The idea of a "golden parachute" for senior management is due to limited career prospects and the amount of responsibility they shoulder. While a failed IT tech support could simply move to another company, city, state and find another job, a failed CEO or GM (due to exposure) is almost un-hireable. Majority of the time, the failure is not even their fault. So it stands to reason, it would be suicide to go into a job without a "golden parachute".

So while on paper it certainly looks unfair, but ask yourself what sort of severance package you would want for yourself if your next redundancy meant you would never work again?


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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Hardly. I'm certain executives engage in at least as much self-preservation as anyone else, but you don't hear about corporations like Union Pacific, Huntington-Ingalls, General Dynamics, or General Electric suffering major collapses because they tried to boost short term stock gains. You're focusing excessively on companies that are highly visible to the general consumer, and on those that are noted for the type of behavior you're criticizing.

Not every type of business lends itself to even attempting the strategy you're describing.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Hardly. I'm certain executives engage in at least as much self-preservation as anyone else, but you don't hear about corporations like Union Pacific, Huntington-Ingalls, General Dynamics, or General Electric suffering major collapses because they tried to boost short term stock gains. You're focusing excessively on companies that are highly visible to the general consumer, and on those that are noted for the type of behavior you're criticizing.

Not every type of business lends itself to even attempting the strategy you're describing.


Note a similarity in all those companies you list as well as Lydiaa's? All companies that are more than 50 to 100 years old with a long corporate history that was formed long before the current practices that are very common in the general business world.

You are of course correct that there are companies that don't behave as I've laid out, but if you look at the number of companies like them compared to the number that are similar to how I've described I think you'll find that they are a small minority.


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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:41 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Hardly. I'm certain executives engage in at least as much self-preservation as anyone else, but you don't hear about corporations like Union Pacific, Huntington-Ingalls, General Dynamics, or General Electric suffering major collapses because they tried to boost short term stock gains. You're focusing excessively on companies that are highly visible to the general consumer, and on those that are noted for the type of behavior you're criticizing.

Not every type of business lends itself to even attempting the strategy you're describing.


Note a similarity in all those companies you list as well as Lydiaa's? All companies that are more than 50 to 100 years old with a long corporate history that was formed long before the current practices that are very common in the general business world.

You are of course correct that there are companies that don't behave as I've laid out, but if you look at the number of companies like them compared to the number that are similar to how I've described I think you'll find that they are a small minority.


You know Hostess was 82 years old this year right?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Interesting. It just seems that you have very little exposure to the levels of senior management in the medium to large business world. Golden parachutes and frankly the behavior of executives is pretty ubiquitous across the business world today. Certainly there are examples of people who break the mold there, but they are definitely the exception not the rule. Especially in public companies.

Actually, Aizle, my knowledge is formed from working closely with those senior managers and executives you describe. It's how I can tell you, in no uncertain terms, that you are wrong in terms of executive behavior detrimental to the company. Executive compensation, including lucrative exit clauses, aren't really germane to the conversation; as companies must pay a premium to attract and retain top executives.

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The average CEO lasts for 3-5 years at a company. During that time they are focused on driving as much profit as possible so that the stock price goes up and then frankly get out before the house of cards that most of them create begins to fall. The "good" ones pull this off and then point to the fact that a year or so after they left their past company is in the shitter as an example of how they couldn't live without him, etc. It's all about the short term gain, especially for the executives, and the skill that they are all most talented at is knowing when to leave because the ship has started to sink.
If any of this were true, outside of a few ancedotal examples, America would be in a constant state of complete market crashes, as every single company would be either in collapse or on the brink of collapse at all times. You've taken a few outliers and normalized them in your mind when it simply isn't the case.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Of course there are dodgy business' out there, and not just in the US. The idea of a business is to make money, a bankrupt business does not make money. No business sets out to make money for their employees... And at the end of the day the GM or CEO is but an employee. Do the 'evil' execs try to look after their own life? of course, it would be silly not to.

Again ask yourself Aizle, if your make a mistake in your current position and caused the business to fail. (And no human could claim they never make a mistake... ) After the decades of hard work to get to the top position, what number would you be comfortable with so that you're never paid again? The job prospect at a CEO/GM level is maybe 10s of thousands, compared with the hundreds of millions at a peon level.

There's fault on both sides (union and management), it's a little unfair to blame one or the other in this case. Neither side should have let the issue get out of hand so much that the company have now collapsed.

That being said... I still have not yet had a twinky. When I was in the US last I had the opportunity to try a fried twinky... my heart and arteries protested and won :neko:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:51 pm 
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People who make money are evil because they make money, and you have to be evil to make money.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Hardly. I'm certain executives engage in at least as much self-preservation as anyone else, but you don't hear about corporations like Union Pacific, Huntington-Ingalls, General Dynamics, or General Electric suffering major collapses because they tried to boost short term stock gains. You're focusing excessively on companies that are highly visible to the general consumer, and on those that are noted for the type of behavior you're criticizing.

Not every type of business lends itself to even attempting the strategy you're describing.


Note a similarity in all those companies you list as well as Lydiaa's? All companies that are more than 50 to 100 years old with a long corporate history that was formed long before the current practices that are very common in the general business world.

You are of course correct that there are companies that don't behave as I've laid out, but if you look at the number of companies like them compared to the number that are similar to how I've described I think you'll find that they are a small minority.


On the contrary, you have presented no reason whatsoever to think that stable companies are a small minority. If what you were saying were true, we would, as Rynar pointed out, be in a constant state of economic crashes, and no one would bother to invest in much of anything because they would know that almost any company they invested in could collapse at any time.

You have this image of executives, stockholders, and boards as universally short-sighted and concerned only with petty gain in the moment. That is not the typical situation, or almost no enterprise would be workable at all.

As for the companies I cited, it isn't their age that makes them stable, its the fact that they engage in business that is steady over time, and is not easily subject to the whims of the consumer. General Motors can be suddenly hit by a major shift in car buyer attitudes, but Union Pacific hauls steel the same way regardless of how the public feels about what use that steel is put to.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Rafael wrote:
FarSky wrote:
It seemed to be standard in the banking world...


Hmm that's interesting given the mediocre to outright lousy chronic performance of the banking and financial services industries.

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Actually it's standard in the professional world period. ANYONE who is a CEO of a medium to large business most likely has a golden parachute of some type.

Similarly, it's is very rare for top executives to actually be fired. Unless they have done something completely out of line, like **** an employee on the boardroom table while being video taped, they are just "encouraged to leave" and they part ways on their own, typically getting a very large stipend from their contract.


It seems to be appropriate in other industries where cornerstone corps perform and produce accordingly with the market. The financial services industry is ripe with failure that is insulated against which prevents any real change from occuring. The era of perpetually flawed fundamental investments is now.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Twinkies are back in play, as management and labor have agreed to a mediator.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:21 pm 
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As if there were ever any doubt.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:34 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
As if there were ever any doubt.

I've got to admit, I was becoming worried that the stress might stroke Raltar out.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:35 pm 
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It's court-requested mediation. I doubt it will materially affect the trajectory of the Hostess company.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
I was becoming worried that the stress might stroke Raltar out.

That's awfully forward of stress. It could at least buy him dinner first.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:56 am 
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A dinner of Twinkies.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:11 am 
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If either side was interested in bargaining, why wouldn't they have already done it?

Just because a judge tells them to meet, doesn't mean either side is going to budge.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:49 am 
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Midgen wrote:
If either side was interested in bargaining, why wouldn't they have already done it?

Just because a judge tells them to meet, doesn't mean either side is going to budge.

^ This. Mediation is non-binding. If a judge had ordered them to arbitration then something would HAVE to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:17 am 
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp


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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:30 am 
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FarSky wrote:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp

Since the f-tards at snopes made the text on their site uncopyable...

Attachment:
snopes.jpg
snopes.jpg [ 91.02 KiB | Viewed 1795 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:04 pm 
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I'm certain that this will make the paycuts much more palatable to the unions. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Since the f-tards at snopes made the text on their site uncopyable...


Disable javascript for the page.

Quote:
Five days after that article was published, the Wall Street Journal reported that Hostess' new CEO, Gregory F. Rayburn, had announced he was slashing executive compensation, and that the company's top four executives had temporarily agreed to cut their annual salaries to $1 while four other executives had agreed to return to their previous salary levels:

The chief executive of Hostess Brands Inc. said he is slashing executive compensation in the aftermath of creditor allegations that the company may have pushed management's salaries higher in the months leading up to its Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing in an effort to skirt bankruptcy rules.

Gregory F. Rayburn, a restructuring expert who took the helm at Hostess last month, said in an interview that the top four executives working under him had agreed to cut their annual salaries to $1 until the company emerges from bankruptcy or Dec. 31, whichever comes first. The executives — Gary Wandschneider, John Stewart, David Loeser and Richard Seban — had seen their salaries increase by 75% to 80% last July, at a time when the baking company had already hired restructuring lawyers, according to creditors.

Further down the totem pole at the Twinkie maker, four additional executives agreed to return to the salaries they were receiving before the July increase.


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 Post subject: Re: Horde your Twinkies
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Since the f-tards at snopes made the text on their site uncopyable...


Disable javascript for the page.

Quote:
Five days after that article was published, the Wall Street Journal reported that Hostess' new CEO, Gregory F. Rayburn, had announced he was slashing executive compensation, and that the company's top four executives had temporarily agreed to cut their annual salaries to $1 while four other executives had agreed to return to their previous salary levels:

The chief executive of Hostess Brands Inc. said he is slashing executive compensation in the aftermath of creditor allegations that the company may have pushed management's salaries higher in the months leading up to its Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing in an effort to skirt bankruptcy rules.

Gregory F. Rayburn, a restructuring expert who took the helm at Hostess last month, said in an interview that the top four executives working under him had agreed to cut their annual salaries to $1 until the company emerges from bankruptcy or Dec. 31, whichever comes first. The executives — Gary Wandschneider, John Stewart, David Loeser and Richard Seban — had seen their salaries increase by 75% to 80% last July, at a time when the baking company had already hired restructuring lawyers, according to creditors.

Further down the totem pole at the Twinkie maker, four additional executives agreed to return to the salaries they were receiving before the July increase.

Or they could just you know not write an applet to prevent you from selecting and copying text.

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