The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Tue Nov 26, 2024 10:09 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:09 pm 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Or not. Whatevs.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/ ... z2GAKA8VUy

Quote:

4:42AM Sunday Dec 30, 2012
[...]

The Sydney Morning Herald
National Times

[...]
Caught in a bind that threatens an Asian war nobody wants

Date
December 26, 2012
Category
Opinion

Hugh White

Creative diplomacy is urgently needed for a face-saving solution.

[...]
THIS is how wars usually start: with a steadily escalating stand-off over something intrinsically worthless. So don't be too surprised if the US and Japan go to war with China next year over the uninhabited rocks that Japan calls the Senkakus and China calls the Diaoyu islands. And don't assume the war would be contained and short.

Of course we should all hope that common sense prevails.

It seems almost laughably unthinkable that the world's three richest countries - two of them nuclear-armed - would go to war over something so trivial. But that is to confuse what starts a war with what causes it. The Greek historian Thucydides first explained the difference almost 2500 years ago. He wrote that the catastrophic Peloponnesian War started from a spat between Athens and one of Sparta's allies over a relatively insignificant dispute. But what caused the war was something much graver: the growing wealth and power of Athens, and the fear this caused in Sparta.

The analogy with Asia today is uncomfortably close and not at all reassuring. No one in 431BC really wanted a war, but when Athens threatened one of Sparta's allies over a disputed colony, the Spartans felt they had to intervene. They feared that to step back in the face of Athens' growing power would fatally compromise Sparta's position in the Greek world, and concede supremacy to Athens.
Advertisement

The Senkakus issue is likewise a symptom of tensions whose cause lies elsewhere, in China's growing challenge to America's long-standing leadership in Asia, and America's response. In the past few years China has become both markedly stronger and notably more assertive. America has countered with the strategic pivot to Asia. Now, China is pushing back against President Barack Obama's pivot by targeting Japan in the Senkakus.

The Japanese themselves genuinely fear that China will become even more overbearing as its strength grows, and they depend on America to protect them. But they also worry whether they can rely on Washington as China becomes more formidable. China's ratcheting pressure over the Senkakus strikes at both these anxieties.

The push and shove over the islands has been escalating for months. Just before Japan's recent election, China flew surveillance aircraft over the islands for the first time, and since the election both sides have reiterated their tough talk.

Where will it end? The risk is that, without a clear circuit-breaker, the escalation will continue until at some point shots are exchanged, and a spiral to war begins that no one can stop. Neither side could win such a war, and it would be devastating not just for them but for the rest of us.

No one wants this, but the crisis will not stop by itself. One side or other, or both, will have to take positive steps to break the cycle of action and reaction. This will be difficult, because any concession by either side would so easily be seen as a backdown, with huge domestic political costs and international implications.

It would therefore need real political strength and skill, which is in short supply all round - especially in Tokyo and Beijing, which both have new and untested leaders. And each side apparently hopes that they will not have to face this test, because they expect the other side will back down first.

Beijing apparently believes that if it keeps pushing, Washington will persuade Tokyo to make concessions over the disputed islands in order to avoid being dragged into a war with China, which would be a big win for them. Tokyo on the other hand fervently hopes that, faced with firm US support for Japan, China will have no choice but to back down.

And in Washington, too, most people seem to think China will back off. They argue that China needs America more than America needs China, and that Beijing will back down rather than risk a break with the US which would devastate China's economy.

Unfortunately, the Chinese seem to see things differently. They believe America will not risk a break with China because America's economy would suffer so much.

These mutual misconceptions carry the seeds of a terrible miscalculation, as each side underestimates how much is at stake for the other. For Japan, bowing to Chinese pressure would feel like acknowledging China's right to push them around, and accepting that America can't help them. For Washington, not supporting Tokyo would not only fatally damage the alliance with Japan, it would amount to an acknowledgment America is no longer Asia's leading power, and that the ''pivot'' is just posturing. And for Beijing, a backdown would mean that instead of proving its growing power, its foray into the Senkakus would simply have demonstrated America's continued primacy. So for all of them, the largest issues of power and status are at stake. These are exactly the kind of issues that great powers have often gone to war over.

So how do we all get out of this bind? Perhaps creative diplomacy can find a face-saving formula that defuses the situation by allowing each side to claim that it has given way less than the other. That would be wonderful. But it would still leave the deeper causes of the problem - China's growing power and the need to find a peaceful way to accommodate it - unresolved. That remains the greatest challenge.

Hugh White is professor of strategic studies at ANU and a visiting fellow at the Lowy Institute.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:25 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Uh.. yeah.. not going to happen.

The only thing that's really comparable to the ancient Greek situation is the fact that China and the U.S. are the 2 major Pacific powers. Other than that, however, there's no real comparison especially since "the pacific" or "east Asia" don't comprise parts of a larger, loosely unified cultural whole in the way the Greek nations were united by common language and similar culture. Furthermore, neither China nor the U.S. is really in danger of total defeat by the other. This makes the dispute, for the 2 larger players, completely a matter of face-saving and politics, whereas in the Sparta-Athens dispute the rise and power of one threatened the actual survival of the other.

A situation could arise down the road where China represented a real threat to our national survival, or more likely, specifically to Hawaii, Alaska, and/or Guam, but that is not going to happen in the next year or even 10 years, and is not relevant to the new, untested governments this guy brings up, nor any urgent need for creative diplomacy (whatever that is). Similarly, a situation could theoretically arise where we represent some sort of threat of utter destruction to China, but that's not all that likely either.

This guy also ignores the stabilizing effect of both sides having nuclear weapons. No amount of face-saving or desire for influence will make either side willing to engage in nuclear war. Neither side is run by madmen. China cannot effectively contest U.S. naval forces to effect an amphibious invasion that would be needed to actually take the islands, much less threaten Japan, and they are simply not going to be willing to accept the incineration of Shanghai or Beijing as the price to destroy a carrier battle group. Similarly, the U.S. is not going to accept that San Francisco is the cost of a minor loss of influence in Asia, much less the cost of Japan's loss of face.

And that brings up another point. If the Japanese seriously think that because the U.S. is not willing to engage in a major war with China so that they don't lose a few small, uninhabited islands, that therefore the U.S. is not going to protect Japan against a Chinese invasion or threat to its actual survival as a nation, they're total morons.

If war with China does come, it's going to be over threats to Japan itself, or South Korea, or Taiwan, or Australia, or our debt and a hopefully hypothetical attempt by them to use it as a weapon. Not because of a few insignificant islands. This guy is barking up the wrong tree. Even those other scenarios are not particularly likely. If war was a serious threat, someone would need a much more concrete proposal than "engage in creative diplomacy!". Notice he spends no effort whatsoever on explaining what creative diplomacy would entail, and who should engage in it. He's just trying to generate an article to get his name out there.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:38 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Oh yeah, one more thing.

If Japan is so worried about these islands, maybe they ought to try being less dependent on the U.S. for defense. It's been almost 70 years now; they can really stop hiding behind the WWII thing and amend their Constitution so they can actually take some responsibility for their own defense instead of having some tiny-ass force that's only there to hold off the Chinese/Russians until the U.S. gets there on the asinine reasoning that actually being able to defend themselves would be too aggressive.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:37 pm 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
To the effect that the US would be able to instantly say FU to China and get out from under 1.16T in debt (as of sept 2012) I'd almost say that a "war" would be the goal of the United States. War gets industry moving. War gets people compliant in the name of security. War allows the Government to grow it's power. War is a flag to rally the faithful and a club to beat the dissident.

I would say the reason for the United States to NOT get involved in a declared war are quickly being outweighed by the benefits.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:22 pm 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
The United States could destroy China, with an amazing loss of life. However, we cannot take and hold China and even the attempt to do so would be disastrous - for the US.

Were we to declare war on China, for any reason less than our territory was attacked and hey declared war on us, we would quickly become a pariah nation unable to earn anyone's trust. We would go from being a seriously tarnished white hat nation to an evil black hat nation immediately. Nuclear weapons would be back on the table and no one, least of all China, would be willing to loan us money again, lest we go all crusader on them to get the loans forgiven. Bad bad idea.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:35 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Modern war between major countries does not last long enough to be a major That enefit to industry. Years-long wars like WWII or even Korea are a thing of the past. The risk of a nuclear exchange also makes the risks involved simply too great to be overcome by potential industrial growth.

In the modern era, what stimulates industry is a visble threat you don't know if you'll have to fight. Local tensions between small powers aligned one way or the other mean war could explode at any time.

That war will be over far too quickly for any making people "compliant" or "increasing ower" to happen; all that is just filtering the normal reaction of people who find their nation in conflict through the lens of suspicion of government. A war between the US, Chin, and Japan over these islands or any similar conflict is going to come down to China first trying to Neutralize our naval assets and then going for an invasion before we can get more in the area. In a week, tops, one side or the other will be faced with escalation out of all proportion to the likelyhood of success or the value of the islands at best, with the need to resort to nuclear weapons to succeed at worst.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:39 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Micheal wrote:
The United States could destroy China, with an amazing loss of life. However, we cannot take and hold China and even the attempt to do so would be disastrous - for the US.

Were we to declare war on China, for any reason less than our territory was attacked and hey declared war on us, we would quickly become a pariah nation unable to earn anyone's trust. We would go from being a seriously tarnished white hat nation to an evil black hat nation immediately. Nuclear weapons would be back on the table and no one, least of all China, would be willing to loan us money again, lest we go all crusader on them to get the loans forgiven. Bad bad idea.


We would certainly not be a pariah nation for declaring war on China if they attacked Japan or South Korea. If the world DID do that, it would pretty much unequivocally demonstrate total hostility towards us and a reliance on the thinnest excuse to justify it. Major nations also cannot easily be made "pariahs" the way Iran or NK can.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:02 pm 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
Diamondeye wrote:
Micheal wrote:
The United States could destroy China, with an amazing loss of life. However, we cannot take and hold China and even the attempt to do so would be disastrous - for the US.

Were we to declare war on China, for any reason less than our territory was attacked and hey declared war on us, we would quickly become a pariah nation unable to earn anyone's trust. We would go from being a seriously tarnished white hat nation to an evil black hat nation immediately. Nuclear weapons would be back on the table and no one, least of all China, would be willing to loan us money again, lest we go all crusader on them to get the loans forgiven. Bad bad idea.


We would certainly not be a pariah nation for declaring war on China if they attacked Japan or South Korea. If the world DID do that, it would pretty much unequivocally demonstrate total hostility towards us and a reliance on the thinnest excuse to justify it. Major nations also cannot easily be made "pariahs" the way Iran or NK can.


If they attack Japan or Korea over those eight little little islets our best response is to see what the first few days bring and try to play peacemaker. Our treaties notwithstanding, we do not have to rush to put a major military presence in the area (other than what we already have between Japan and Korea). The real bone of contention is the oil believed to be under the ocean in that area. The Islands themselves are marginally closer to China, are all uninhabited, and all together they measure a little over 6 square kilometers. Three of them are just rocks sticking out of the ocean and aren't very high above the waves. The reason no one has developed or drilled for oil is because that would start a war.

Right now it is just posturing and making political hay out of the issue. Until someone takes it beyond that all we can do is sit patiently, wait, and wish we had taken the oil when we had responsibility for the islands. Any move we make before the shooting starts should be "please gentlemen, can we talk abut this?"

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:17 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Do we respect sovereignty or not. I know it's just "a couple of uninhabited Islands," but doesn't that just embolden them to keep going? Maybe we don't have to go to war, but just saying the equivalent of "whatever" seems a bit off. I don't know who has the legitimate claim though.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:22 pm 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
The question is of course, who's sovereignty? Japan and China both claim the islands and Korea also makes some noise about them. We had them in trust and returned them to Japan, who had taken them from China when back in 1895. China has the longest historical claim to them, so how long do the spoils of war count for legal possession?

This is not a black and white easy question. If oil weren't in the picture China wouldn't be pressing so hard, and Japan wouldn't be so unwilling to negotiate on them.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:26 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
If we try to wait and play peacemaker, China will take the islands, make noise about negotiating, and then stonewall until the world loses interest.

That may be a viable option for us compared to fighting. There's a lot to be considered. Our best option, however, is not found by making avoiding a fight our goal. One of the best ways to start a fight is to tell an aggressor you don't want to.

We also might not be given the option. If China decides the islands are worth it, we could wake up one morning to find there was a naval battle at night because China decided to not take chanes as to whether we'd come in.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:49 pm 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
We could quickly make the islands a moot point by destroying them. Then it will be open ocean they are talking about, and they can focus on the real goal, the oil beneath.

The Islands happen to be within the water each country claims for off-shore fishing rights. For security each country wants the other out of their territory.

Heck, they can't even agree on a name, they both call it by different names and refuse to use the other country's name so it doesn't seem like they are giving anything up.

This has been going on for over 100 years. Why the big blow up about this now?

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:00 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Our entire nuclear arsenal would be hard-pressed to physically pulverize these islands to the point of disappearence.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:55 am 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
No, but a SEAL team with enough det cord and C-4 could make relatively quick work of them.

It isn't so much what you use as how you use it.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:14 am 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Maybe we should highly compel both sides to seek arbitration. Isn't that why we have a UN?

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:30 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Micheal wrote:
No, but a SEAL team with enough det cord and C-4 could make relatively quick work of them.

It isn't so much what you use as how you use it.


.....

I really hope you're joking.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:55 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Micheal wrote:
We could quickly make the islands a moot point by destroying them. Then it will be open ocean they are talking about, and they can focus on the real goal, the oil beneath.

The Islands happen to be within the water each country claims for off-shore fishing rights. For security each country wants the other out of their territory.

Heck, they can't even agree on a name, they both call it by different names and refuse to use the other country's name so it doesn't seem like they are giving anything up.

This has been going on for over 100 years. Why the big blow up about this now?


It's really just this professor writing an article to put forth this idea that there's a parallel between this situation and the Greek situation back 2000+ years ago. Most likely he just needs to publish for professional reasons and so he settled on this to get something out there.

Like I said initially, he's really not proposing any solutions. All he does is suggest "creative diplomacy". He doesn't say by whom, towards whom, or even what "creative diplomacy" is and how it differs from normal diplomacy, or why normal diplomacy wouldn't work. All he's really saying is "This is a problem! Someone should solve it! Otherwise, it might conceivably lead to a war!" Well, duh. Yes, it's a problem, and yes, someone ought to solve it. That's what problems are for. It also might lead to war. International disputes occasionally do that. It's nothing to panic over, however.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: WAR??!?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:18 pm 
Offline
I got nothin.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 pm
Posts: 11160
Location: Arafys, AKA El Müso Guapo!


Image

I couldn't decide what to go with... So I went with both.

_________________
Image
Holy shitsnacks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 60 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group