The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 3:59 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 121 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:54 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
"Shall not be infringed" does not mean "cannot be restricted". What it means is that a restriction cannot constitute an infringement.

Most proposed gun control legislation, however, constitutes an infringement.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:59 am
Posts: 3879
Location: 63368
Aizle wrote:
So if I understand your position then Taskiss, you feel there should be no limits on what arms people can get access to?

What about felons?
What about the mentally ill?
Should they have access to grenade launchers?
What about mortars?
Land mines?
Explosives?

The fact is that every right in the constitution is regulated in some way.

I believe you missed my point entirely, probably because I was just streaming my thoughts and did little to no editing.

My point is, there are ways to make the changes the administration wants that are consistent with the ideals of separation of powers and they are specifically outlined in the foundation documents of our nation.

Using any other methods to make changes to rights recognized by those foundation documents weakens the foundation of "we the people". Note that the government doesn't grant those rights, it recognizes them. When the government changes the way the citizenry experience their rights without following the established process, it reduces our rights to the status of some whim of the administration, specifically, what the current administration wants them to be. Tomorrow, another whim? SO... do we hold the administration accountable and insist they follow the process in order to maintain a consistency outside of whomever holds office today?

The executive didn't dump on the GOP or the NRA, the executive just dumped on all of us. The GOP and the NRA are the ones calling it to our attention.

_________________
In time, this too shall pass.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:40 am
Posts: 3188
DFK! wrote:
Four words: "Shall not be infringed."


Four more words: "A well regulated militia"

One could argue so much about that and the original intent of that ammendment. But that is neither here nor there.

Personally, I would be fine with requiring a license to own a gun. It would be no different than having to give my personal information to own property, have running water, have internet access, etc. etc. Requiring a license isn't the same as telling me I can't own a gun.

Freedom, like real democracy, in this country is a mere illusion and has been for quite a long time.

And for the record, I am a proud gun owner with plans on getting concealed carry in the future.

_________________
Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:50 pm 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
What constitutes mentally ill? Anyone with a history of depression? OCD? Bpd? Anxiety?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:08 am
Posts: 6465
Location: The Lab
TheRiov wrote:
What constitutes mentally ill? Anyone with a history of depression? OCD? Bpd? Anxiety?


Anyone who didn't vote four our Savior Barack Obama ?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:08 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
What do you mean, what constitutes mental illness?

A person is mentally ill in a way that means they can't have a weapon when they are a danger to themselves or others, based upon actual statements or actions they have made or done. Does OCD fall into that? In some cases probably yes, in others, no. That's why you need to have a PhD to diagnose people.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:27 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
Numbuk wrote:
Four more words: "A well regulated militia"

Four more words: "This is not relevant."

A well-regulated militia is not the restriction on when gun ownership is permissible. It is the explanation for why the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Citizens can not form a militia if they do not already possess weapons to use in battle. You will notice that, aside from the Navy, there exist no provisions in the Constitution to keep a standing military. Weapons have to come from somewhere, and when the war is over and the ground forces stand down, they have to go somewhere. They don't just appear out of nowhere, and then vanish.

This has gotten muddied in recent generations as we've become accustomed not only to having a standing military, but to constantly having that standing military deployed overseas. However, the fact that our federal government has run the United States military in a fashion that is not authorized by the Constitution longer than nearly every citizen has been alive does not mean that a well-regulated militia shall be construed as necessary for the ownership of a gun, or even in any way relevant to the matter at hand.

Also note that the second amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. It is not only legal to own a weapon, it is legal to brandish it, and furthermore it can not become illegal to do so. It also says "arms" as opposed to "guns," indicating that the right to keep and bear weapons which are not firearms, as well as weapons which would be invented by later generations shall also not be infringed. I find it interesting that a document which is written to be as broad as possible in the enumeration of the rights of the people is somehow interpreted as being very specific when omg gunz comes up for discussion.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Last edited by Corolinth on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:29 pm 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
I think that's my point. There's no reasonable way to screen for mental illness. Diagnosing mental illness sometimes takes multiple evaluations, second opinions, office staff, etc. This isn't as simple as a drug test. But even if we take a sane-until-proven-crazy approach, (ie, until you have an actual medical diagnosis) do you allow for people to be cured? The rate of relapse in most mental illnesses is often very high iirc.

And what about PTSD? A firearm may actually help some people cope.... feel safer after an assault. But it could also be used for a suicide in those same people who might having depression along with it.

DE, aren't most assaults & murders with firearms the result of domestic violence? Would a better approach be to remove firearms from a domestic violence call made to the police (perhaps not as simple as that, some standard beyond just the accusation, but less than a jury trial or a beyond a reasonable doubt standard) ?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
New York just passed a gun control bill. Some highlights:

Quote:
Called the Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act, New York's law:

1) Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.
2) Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.
3) Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.
4) Requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient's gun could be taken from him or her, as well.
5) Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.
6) Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature
7) Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.


I LOVE #1. So, 10-round clips can be possessed, but it is a criminal offense to fully load them. If I'm planning on murdering people, do you think I'd be concerned about the misdemeanor charge for loading it? What possible functional purpose can this serve? If 10 rounds are inherently dangerous, ban 10-round clips. Or not.

#4 - Let's correct the mental health violence issues by punishing people for going to seek help for their issues!

#5 - Or... what? While it's a good idea, are we really going to make victims of burglaries criminals?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Here's some highlights of bills introduced in New Jersey:

Quote:

A-3645/S-2476 Requires ammunition sales and transfers be conducted as face-to-face transactions.

A-3646/S-2474 Establishes a regulatory system to govern the sale and transfer of ammunition.

A-3653 Criminalizes purchasing or owning weapon if person has previous conviction of unlawful possession of weapon.

A-3659 Revises definition of destructive device to include certain weapons of 50 caliber or greater.

A-3664 Reduces lawful maximum capacity of certain ammunition magazines in New Jersey.

A-3666/S-2465 Prohibits mail order, Internet, telephone, and any other anonymous method of ammunition sale or transfer in New Jersey.

A-3667 Requires mental health screening by licensed professional to purchase a firearm.

A-3668/S-2467 Prohibits investment by State of pension and annuity funds in companies manufacturing, importing, and selling assault firearms for civilian use.

A-3676 Requires psychological evaluation and in-home inspection as prerequisite to purchase firearm.

A-3687 Disqualifies person named on federal Terrorist Watchlist from obtaining firearms identification card or permit to purchase handgun.

A-3688 Requires mental health evaluation and list of household members with mental illness to purchase firearm.

A-3689 Requires security guards who carry weapons to wear certain uniform, including identification card.

A-3690/S-2430 Declares violence a public health crisis, recommends expansion of mental health programs, recommends federal adoption of gun control measures, and establishes “Study Commission on Violence.”

AJR-89 Urges President and US Senate to ratify Arms Trade Treaty proposed by United Nations.

AR-133 Expresses support for creation of task force on gun control led by Vice President Biden.

S-2464 Regulates sale and transfer of rifle and shotgun ammunition.

S-2475 Reduces maximum capacity of ammunition magazines to 10 rounds.

SR-92 Urges Congress to strengthen gun control laws.


Quote:
A-3667 Requires mental health screening by licensed professional to purchase a firearm.


Can you imagine how pointless this will be? You can't determine this in an hour, or whatever. Also - I know several people that are so nervous they can't talk to people in this fashion. Does nervousness make someone ineligible to own a firearm?

Quote:
A-3689 Requires security guards who carry weapons to wear certain uniform, including identification card.


Can we provide training to criminals so they can accurately identify these uniforms? This will help reduce crime in the absolute immediate vicinity of the security guard.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:20 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
TheRiov wrote:
I think that's my point. There's no reasonable way to screen for mental illness. Diagnosing mental illness sometimes takes multiple evaluations, second opinions, office staff, etc. This isn't as simple as a drug test. But even if we take a sane-until-proven-crazy approach, (ie, until you have an actual medical diagnosis) do you allow for people to be cured? The rate of relapse in most mental illnesses is often very high iirc.

And what about PTSD? A firearm may actually help some people cope.... feel safer after an assault. But it could also be used for a suicide in those same people who might having depression along with it.

DE, aren't most assaults & murders with firearms the result of domestic violence? Would a better approach be to remove firearms from a domestic violence call made to the police (perhaps not as simple as that, some standard beyond just the accusation, but less than a jury trial or a beyond a reasonable doubt standard) ?


Yes, it takes effort to determine that mental illness exists. That's sort of the point. We should be identifying people that are truely mentwlly ill, not trying to use it as an excuse to prevent people from getting guns.

As for domestic violence, that entire topic is so mired in propaganda that its worthless.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:46 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
New York just passed a gun control bill. Some highlights:

Quote:
Called the Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act, New York's law:

1) Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.


This has to be the most asinine law I've ever seen.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:59 pm 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Rafael wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
New York just passed a gun control bill. Some highlights:

Quote:
Called the Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act, New York's law:

1) Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.


This has to be the most asinine law I've ever seen.


Here's hoping you don't miscount.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:23 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
How exactly would this ever be enforced?

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:34 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
The vast majority of states already require you to block non-removable magazines in semi-automatic rifles to capacities less than 10. There's nothing new there ...

The bigger problem is that New York State has functionally outlawed all long guns, since their list of "military features" includes possession of or the ability to mount optical sights to the weapons.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:11 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Rafael wrote:
How exactly would this ever be enforced?

after you shoot an intruder 8 times you'd get arrested.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:46 am 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
Rafael wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
New York just passed a gun control bill. Some highlights:

Quote:
Called the Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act, New York's law:

1) Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.


This has to be the most asinine law I've ever seen.



That bans clips. Not magazines.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:12 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Rorinthas wrote:
Rafael wrote:
How exactly would this ever be enforced?

after you shoot an intruder 8 times you'd get arrested.


9. You get one in the chamber.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:12 am 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
I'm more interested in the declaring violence a public health crisis coupled with the power given to health and human services under obamacare. Wouldn't that give sebellius the same fiat power given to say the EPA? She just declares new rules and it takes a court battle to walk them back?

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:28 am 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Khross wrote:
The vast majority of states already require you to block non-removable magazines in semi-automatic rifles to capacities less than 10. There's nothing new there ...


Only a handful of states forbid possession of detachable magazines over 10 rounds. CA, NJ, NY and CT come to mind. MD bans sale, transfer, purchase, manufacture but not possesion or use of feeding devices greater than 20 rounds. CA does allow mag capacity of greater than 10 as long as they are semi permanently attached, i.e. bullet button.

Magazine blocks may be the method for compliance but it is not a method of enforcement. There is no good way to enforce magazine restrictions, much less enforce method of magazine operation.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:06 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Oops they forgot to exempt cops.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:24 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
They forgot all kinds of things in the NY bill. I bet they forgot to exempt their National Guard too.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:43 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Hopwin wrote:
Oops they forgot to exempt cops.


Maybe that was on purpose to finally try to rectify the whole Diallo thing?

Too soon?

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:02 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Rafael:

Most of your detachable magazine and clip restrictions originate at the Federal level. Sporting restrictions on non-detachable feeding devices are almost exclusively state restrictions and almost exclusively because of one gun.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:30 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Open letter signed by over 1,000 army special operators:

http://sofrep.com/16644/1000-green-bere ... amendment/

Quote:
Green Berets Sign Letter Supporting 2nd Amendment

by Blake Miles · January 29, 2013 · Posted In: SOF News


The following letter was disseminated and signed by over 1,000 current and former Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) in support of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, specifically as a defensive measure against tyranny. The letter was compiled through the joint efforts of current and former Special Forces personnel over at www.ProfessionalSoldiers.com, and quietly disseminated for signatures among secure, vetted circles.

Protecting the Second Amendment – Why all Americans Should Be Concerned

We are current or former Army Reserve, National Guard, and active duty US Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets). We have all taken an oath to “…support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.…” The Constitution of the United States is without a doubt the single greatest document in the history of mankind, codifying the fundamental principle of governmental power and authority being derived from and granted through the consent of the governed. Our Constitution established a system of governance that preserves, protects, and holds sacrosanct the individual rights and primacy of the governed as well as providing for the explicit protection of the governed from governmental tyranny and/or oppression. We have witnessed the insidious and iniquitous effects of tyranny and oppression on people all over the world. We and our forebears have embodied and personified our organizational motto, De Oppresso Liber [To Free the Oppressed], for more than a half century as we have fought, shed blood, and died in the pursuit of freedom for the oppressed.

Like you, we are also loving and caring fathers and grandfathers. Like you, we have been stunned, horrified, and angered by the tragedies of Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Fort Hood, and Sandy Hook; and like you, we are searching for solutions to the problem of gun-related crimes in our society. Many of us are educators in our second careers and have a special interest to find a solution to this problem. However, unlike much of the current vox populi reactions to this tragedy, we offer a different perspective.

First, we need to set the record straight on a few things. The current debate is over so-called “assault weapons” and high capacity magazines. The terms “assault weapon” and “assault rifle” are often confused. According to Bruce H. Kobayashi and Joseph E. Olson, writing in the Stanford Law and Policy Review, “Prior to 1989, the term ‘assault weapon’ did not exist in the lexicon of firearms. It is a political term [underline added for emphasis], developed by anti-gun publicists to expand the category of assault rifles.”

The M4A1 carbine is a U.S. military service rifle – it is an assault rifle. The AR-15 is not an assault rifle. The “AR” in its name does not stand for “Assault Rifle” – it is the designation from the first two letters of the manufacturer’s name – ArmaLite Corporation. The AR-15 is designed so that it cosmetically looks like the M4A1 carbine assault rifle, but it is impossible to configure the AR-15 to be a fully automatic assault rifle. It is a single shot semi-automatic rifle that can fire between 45 and 60 rounds per minute depending on the skill of the operator. The M4A1 can fire up to 950 rounds per minute. In 1986, the federal government banned the import or manufacture of new fully automatic firearms for sale to civilians. Therefore, the sale of assault rifles are already banned or heavily restricted!

The second part of the current debate is over “high capacity magazines” capable of holding more than 10 rounds in the magazine. As experts in military weapons of all types, it is our considered opinion that reducing magazine capacity from 30 rounds to 10 rounds will only require an additional 6 -8 seconds to change two empty 10 round magazines with full magazines. Would an increase of 6 –8 seconds make any real difference to the outcome in a mass shooting incident? In our opinion it would not. Outlawing such “high capacity magazines” would, however, outlaw a class of firearms that are “in common use”. As such this would be in contravention to the opinion expressed by the U.S. Supreme Court recent decisions.

Moreover, when the Federal Assault Weapons Ban became law in 1994, manufacturers began retooling to produce firearms and magazines that were compliant. One of those ban-compliant firearms was the Hi-Point 995, which was sold with ten-round magazines. In 1999, five years into the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, the Columbine High School massacre occurred. One of the perpetrators, Eric Harris, was armed with a Hi-Point 995. Undeterred by the ten-round capacity of his magazines, Harris simply brought more of them: thirteen magazines would be found in the massacre’s aftermath. Harris fired 96 rounds before killing himself.

Now that we have those facts straight, in our opinion, it is too easy to conclude that the problem is guns and that the solution to the problem is more and stricter gun control laws. For politicians, it is politically expedient to take that position and pass more gun control laws and then claim to constituents that they have done the right thing in the interest of protecting our children. Who can argue with that? Of course we all want to find a solution. But, is the problem really guns? Would increasing gun regulation solve the problem? Did we outlaw cars to combat drunk driving?

What can we learn from experiences with this issue elsewhere? We cite the experience in Great Britain. Despite the absence of a “gun culture”, Great Britain, with one-fifth the population of the U.S., has experienced mass shootings that are eerily similar to those we have experienced in recent years. In 1987 a lone gunman killed 18 people in Hungerford. What followed was the Firearms Act of 1988 making registration mandatory and banning semi-automatic guns and pump-action shotguns. Despite this ban, on March 13, 1996 a disturbed 43-year old former scout leader, Thomas Hamilton, murdered 16 school children aged five and six and a teacher at a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland. Within a year and a half the Firearms Act was amended to ban all private ownership of hand guns. After both shootings there were amnesty periods resulting in the surrender of thousands of firearms and ammunition. Despite having the toughest gun control laws in the world, gun related crimes increased in 2003 by 35% over the previous year with firearms used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the preceding 12 months. Gun related homicides were up 32% over the same period. Overall, gun related crime had increased 65% since the Dunblane massacre and implementation of the toughest gun control laws in the developed world.

In contrast, in 2009 (5 years after the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired) total firearm related homicides in the U.S. declined by 9% from the 2005 high (Source: “FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Master File, Table 310, Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009”).

Are there unintended consequences to stricter gun control laws and the politically expedient path that we have started down?

In a recent op-ed piece in the San Francisco Chronicle, Brett Joshpe stated that “Gun advocates will be hard-pressed to explain why the average American citizen needs an assault weapon with a high-capacity magazine other than for recreational purposes.”We agree with Kevin D. Williamson (National Review Online, December 28, 2012): “The problem with this argument is that there is no legitimate exception to the Second Amendment right that excludes military-style weapons, because military-style weapons are precisely what the Second Amendment guarantees our right to keep and bear.”

“The purpose of the Second Amendment is to secure our ability to oppose enemies foreign and domestic, a guarantee against disorder and tyranny. Consider the words of Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story”: ‘The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.’

The Second Amendment has been ruled to specifically extend to firearms “in common use” by the military by the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in U.S. v Miller (1939). In Printz v U.S. (1997) Justice Thomas wrote: “In Miller we determined that the Second Amendment did not guarantee a citizen’s right to possess a sawed-off shot gun because that weapon had not been shown to be “ordinary military equipment” that could “could contribute to the common defense”.

A citizen’s right to keep and bear arms for personal defense unconnected with service in a militia has been reaffirmed in the U.S. Supreme Court decision (District of Columbia, et al. v Heller, 2008). The Court Justice Scalia wrote in the majority opinion: “The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.“. Justice Scalia went on to define a militia as “… comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense ….” “The Anti-Federalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved.” he explained.

On September 13, 1994, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban went into effect. A Washington Post editorial published two days later was candid about the ban’s real purpose:“[N]o one should have any illusions about what was accomplished [by the ban]. Assault weapons play a part in only a small percentage of crime. The provision is mainly symbolic; its virtue will be if it turns out to be, as hoped, a stepping stone to broader gun control.”

In a challenge to the authority of the Federal government to require State and Local Law Enforcement to enforce Federal Law (Printz v United States) the U.S. Supreme Court rendered a decision in 1997. For the majority opinion Justice Scalia wrote: “…. this Court never has sanctioned explicitly a federal command to the States to promulgate and enforce laws and regulations When we were at last confronted squarely with a federal statute that unambiguously required the States to enact or administer a federal regulatory program, our decision should have come as no surprise….. It is an essential attribute of the States’ retained sovereignty that they remain independent and autonomous within their proper sphere of authority.”

So why should non-gun owners, a majority of Americans, care about maintaining the 2nd Amendment right for citizens to bear arms of any kind? The answer is “The Battle of Athens, TN”. The Cantrell family

had controlled the economy and politics of McMinn County, Tennessee since the 1930s. Paul Cantrell had been Sheriff from 1936 -1940 and in 1942 was elected to the State Senate. His chief deputy, Paul Mansfield, was subsequently elected to two terms as Sheriff. In 1946 returning WWII veterans put up a popular candidate for Sheriff. On August 1 Sheriff Mansfield and 200 “deputies” stormed the post office polling place to take control of the ballot boxes wounding an objecting observer in the process. The veterans bearing military style weapons, laid siege to the Sheriff’s office demanding return of the ballot boxes for public counting of the votes as prescribed in Tennessee law. After exchange of gun fire and blowing open the locked doors, the veterans secured the ballot boxes thereby protecting the integrity of the election. And this is precisely why all Americans should be concerned about protecting all of our right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment!

Throughout history, disarming the populace has always preceded tyrants’ accession of power. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao all disarmed their citizens prior to installing their murderous regimes. At the beginning of our own nation’s revolution, one of the first moves made by the British government was an attempt to disarm our citizens. When our Founding Fathers ensured that the 2nd Amendment was made a part of our Constitution, they were not just wasting ink. They were acting to ensure our present security was never forcibly endangered by tyrants, foreign or domestic.

If there is a staggering legal precedent to protect our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms and if stricter gun control laws are not likely to reduce gun related crime, why are we having this debate? Other than making us and our elected representatives feel better because we think that we are doing something to protect our children, these actions will have no effect and will only provide us with a false sense of security.

So, what do we believe will be effective? First, it is important that we recognize that this is not a gun control problem; it is a complex sociological problem. No single course of action will solve the problem. Therefore, it is our recommendation that a series of diverse steps be undertaken, the implementation of which will require patience and diligence to realize an effect. These are as follows:

1. First and foremost we support our Second Amendment right in that “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

2. We support State and Local School Boards in their efforts to establish security protocols in whatever manner and form that they deem necessary and adequate. One of the great strengths of our Republic is that State and Local governments can be creative in solving problems. Things that work can be shared. Our point is that no one knows what will work and there is no one single solution, so let’s allow the State and Local governments with the input of the citizens to make the decisions. Most recently the Cleburne Independent School District will become the first district in North Texas to consider allowing some teachers to carry concealed guns. We do not opine as to the appropriateness of this decision, but we do support their right to make this decision for themselves.

3. We recommend that Assisted Outpatient Treatment (AOT) laws be passed in every State. AOT is formerly known as Involuntary Outpatient Commitment (IOC) and allows the courts to order certain individuals with mental disorders to comply with treatment while living in the community. In each of the mass shooting incidents the perpetrator was mentally unstable. We also believe that people who have been adjudicated as incompetent should be simultaneously examined to determine whether they should be allowed the right to retain/purchase firearms.

4. We support the return of firearm safety programs to schools along the lines of the successful “Eddie the Eagle” program, which can be taught in schools by Peace Officers or other trained professionals.

5. Recent social psychology research clearly indicates that there is a direct relationship between gratuitously violent movies/video games and desensitization to real violence and increased aggressive behavior particularly in children and young adults (See Nicholas L. Carnagey, et al. 2007. “The effect of video game violence on physiological desensitization to real-life violence” and the references therein. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 43:489-496). Therefore, we strongly recommend that gratuitous violence in movies and video games be discouraged. War and war-like behavior should not be glorified. Hollywood and video game producers are exploiting something they know nothing about. General Sherman famously said “War is Hell!” Leave war to the Professionals. War is not a game and should not be “sold” as entertainment to our children.

6. We support repeal of the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it obviously isn’t working. It is our opinion that “Gun-Free Zones” anywhere are too tempting of an environment for the mentally disturbed individual to inflict their brand of horror with little fear of interference. While governmental and non-governmental organizations, businesses, and individuals should be free to implement a Gun-Free Zone if they so choose, they should also assume Tort liability for that decision.

7. We believe that border states should take responsibility for implementation of border control laws to prevent illegal shipments of firearms and drugs. Drugs have been illegal in this country for a long, long time yet the Federal Government manages to seize only an estimated 10% of this contraband at our borders. Given this dismal performance record that is misguided and inept (“Fast and Furious”), we believe that border States will be far more competent at this mission.

8. This is our country, these are our rights. We believe that it is time that we take personal responsibility for our choices and actions rather than abdicate that responsibility to someone else under the illusion that we have done something that will make us all safer. We have a responsibility to stand by our principles and act in accordance with them. Our children are watching and they will follow the example we set.

The undersigned Quiet Professionals hereby humbly stand ever present, ever ready, and ever vigilant.


Read more: http://sofrep.com/16644/1000-green-bere ... z2JTdsKsju

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 121 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 313 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group