The Glade 4.0

I wonder why people do not apply this thinking to private enterprise. I could easily say it takes a certain level of moral ineptitude to succeed in business in this day and age. In fact, it's nearly impossible for people to make it to the top without *some* sort of blood on their hands.

And yet, we hold the captains of industry up as paragons of society. Why is that? They are just as corrupt, if not more so, than your average politician. Hell, they're usually the ones *corrupting* the politicians.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

A) They don't make laws and ultimately cannot compel us to do anything. Even to the degree that they "control" politicians, they don't all control the same politicians to the same degree or to do the same things, and that tends to balance things out through opposing interests.

B) No one regards them as paragons of society. Peopl regard them as successful.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Don't agree to his assumptions.


Monty: prove all of your statements, instead of appealing to emotion, appealing to popularity, and well-poisoning.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I really dont think any politician in a developed country is truely evil. They don't set out to murder and pillage when they wake up in the morning.

I still stand by the "way to hell is paved with the best intentions" and I think it's best used on politicians.

I'm not. He's assuming that they are regarded as paragons of society. I clearly have not accepted that.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

But the "paragon of society" assumption must come later than the underlying assumption of "wrongful behavior" in order to be relevant, in the context of his statement.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Yeah, that's just dumb.

It's undeniably true that some buisness executives do engage in wrongful behavior some of the time.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I wonder why people do not apply this thinking to education. I could easily say it takes a certain level of intellectual ineptitude to succeed in academia in this day and age. In fact, its nearly impossible for people to obtain tenure without demonstrating a complete inability to to perform in the real world.

Wow, that was a fun game.

_________________
The Dude abides.

I'm not challenging the underlying assumption there.

I'm challenging the idea that success in private enterprise requires deliberate wrongdoing.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

It requires no more or less than success in politics does.

Out of curiosity DFK! have you ever worked in a publically held company and had regular interaction with the senior management? I have. And there is a TON of very very grey activity that goes on there, that is no more or less corrupt than what happens in congress.

Well, this is true to an extent, but not the same way. Without once stepping into a grey area, one can strong-arm their way through to controlling a private enterprise. In private enterprise, in a very simplistic, general manner of speaking, money equals control. Having money does not require corruption.

That said, once a corporation gets to a certain size of bureaucracy, corruption runs rampant. But while I believe the general level of corruption is still high, it's not quite as bad as it is in politics, where it's a job-requirement.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

In my experience they are the same. It's just that government typically has more controls on it, many of which require transparency, so you read more about government corruption because it's easier to find it. Private business has much more of an ability to keep things secret.

And you still haven't defined corruption, which means this is a generally meaningless discussion. What is corruption, Aizle?

_________________

I haven't on purpose Khross, because corruption is different things to different people. What I wanted to get (and believe have received) was an emotional response to how people felt about politicians.

My response is more of a reflection on the political process than politicians themselves. I believe that the political process itself is basically a "Who can be the most competent at being corrupt?" game, which leaves those well intentioned types who try to make a difference left in the dust.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

"No more or less corrupt" is subjective. You must define "corrupt" for this discussion to have meaning. Until you do so, I'll merely point out the flaws in your logic, rather than respond to the question.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

The devil is in the details. Back room deals, betrayals, sex, drugs, junkets to Dubai for "research" meetings, adventure treks in southeast aisa for a little bit of the local little boy fare, hiring armed thugs to force workers to continue to slave in sweat shop conditions - all of that in the name of the bottom line and a key to the executive washroom.

Can a business person make it to the top with zero blood (literal or figurative) on their hands? I suppose it's possible. And some probably do. Is it common? I doubt it. When it comes down to it, corporate America is cut-throat, sometimes literally. To claw your way past the thousands of others trying to do the same usually requires the kind of moral flexibility a company wants in their leading folks. Seriously, do you want a do-gooder in charge of your North Marianas slave-shop operation? Not likely.




Private enterprise is the primary corrupter of government officials. If we pulled all corporate money out of Washington - all of it - we could have real progress. Sadly, that's never going to happen. Someone would shout socialism and have a tea party and everyone would run back to the arms of their lobbyist (and the hookers and coke he just happens to have access too, in addition to the campaign contributions) for comfort.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

There's a really interesting discussion to be had here, but everyone seems to be skirting around it. That said, I find the allusions to Moral Realism rather interesting, considering the parties involved.

_________________

Human nature is the primary corrupter of government officials. Private business doesn't lead a "noble" man to corruption. That path is already there, and any number of vehicles will move them down it.

Heh.

Corruption need not have anything to do with morality.

Corruption is, at its core, dishonesty. Everyone is at least a little bit corrupt, but some far more so than others. The level of corruption is pretty much pegged at the level of dishonesty.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Noooo human nature is what those who corrupt exploit, to their own end.

Our system of elections requires that senators basically raise 35K a day (probably more, now). Private business makes up the lions share of donations to candidates (Which is one of the reasons Obama's election was so astonishing - the average donation to his campaign was less than 100$, iirc). Lobbyists come to legislators with very large checkbooks and the ability to move and influence people, so long as those legislators are willing to play ball. It's legal bribery, and I don't know how anyone could think that it *doesn't* fit the bill as corruption.

The point is that we often overlook the source of corruption, preferring the intellectually lazy path of simply saying "politicians are bad" instead of digging into the reasons why politicians are often viewed negatively.

Some say that politics naturally attracts bad people. If this is true, then the amoral and often immoral nature of business must also attract some pretty bad people, too. It takes an immoral person to sign off on sweat shop labor, dangerous working conditions, armed enforcement of obscene work hours, and the exploitation of natural resources belonging to developing nations. And yet, many of our captains of industry (which are so revered by so many of us) do all that before their golf game at 3, all in the name of capitalism. It takes an immoral person to look for an excuse to drop a cancer patient from coverage on a technicality. It takes an immoral person to refuse a product recall because the estimated wrongful death payout is cheaper than the recall. It takes an immoral person to give the order for their private security firm to assist in the torture of detainees. It takes an immoral person to fund central american death squads. It takes an immoral person to insinuate themselves into the CIA in order to use it for their own business ends. Private industry does all of that, and has done all of that, throughout our history.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Including you.

I think in private enterprise and in politics.. those in power do what they can to stay in power.

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

So you don't think the person accepting these "bribes" (I dispute your classification, but for simplicity, leave it as is) to stay in power and adjusting their voting/moral grounds to accommodate that desire to stay in power is is the problem? They are using whatever means available to maintain their power. Corrupt people do corrupt things.


Because it is so much more intellectually honest and rigorous to just claim "private business is the evil"...