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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Actually, it didn't apply to the union states at all. It specifically declared slaves in confederate territory free.

Of course, it only applied once the union forces got there to enforce it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Long week.

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Aizle wrote:
That said, I'm not a fan of organizations that differentiate themselves on race alone, outside of assistance organizations.


I missed this.

Really? You'd have no issues with an organization, for example, dedicated to stamping out white poverty and illiteracy, and limiting their assistance in that manner?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:42 pm 
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I owe a couple folks responses on this stuff already, but in the meantime, I have a quick question to those drawing a perfect equivalence between anti-black and anti-white racism in the contemporary United States: Do you also see no difference between anti-Jewish and anti-germanic racism in contemporary Germany? Do context and history have no relevance to your evaluation of the moral and, more importantly, practical implications of the two?

*Edit: changed "anti-Germanic" to "anti-germanic" to clarify that I'm referring to ethnic origins not nationality/citizenship.


Last edited by RangerDave on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:55 pm 
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I read this a week ago I think, worth linking.

http://pjmedia.com/michaelwalsh/2013/03 ... epage=true


In order to escape their truly wretched past (click on the link for my short book on the subject), modern Democrats have adopted as an article of faith the bedtime story that, thanks to Tricky Dick Nixon’s “southern strategy,” the racists who had been the backbone of their party for the better part of a century suddenly switched to the GOP en masse some time around 1968, with the happy result that now all the racists are on the right. Presto — instant virtuousness and a clean slate!

It’s a lie, of course. But don’t take it from me, take it from my National Review colleague Kevin Williamson, who addressed this issue brilliantly last year:

Worse than the myth and the cliché is the outright lie, the utter fabrication with malice aforethought, and my nominee for the worst of them is the popular but indefensible belief that the two major U.S. political parties somehow “switched places” vis-à-vis protecting the rights of black Americans, a development believed to be roughly concurrent with the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the rise of Richard Nixon. That Republicans have let Democrats get away with this mountebankery is a symptom of their political fecklessness, and in letting them get away with it the GOP has allowed itself to be cut off rhetorically from a pantheon of Republican political heroes, from Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass to Susan B. Anthony, who represent an expression of conservative ideals as true and relevant today as it was in the 19th century. Perhaps even worse, the Democrats have been allowed to rhetorically bury their Bull Connors, their longstanding affiliation with the Ku Klux Klan, and their pitiless opposition to practically every major piece of civil-rights legislation for a century.

As Kevin goes on to point out:

If the parties had in some meaningful way flipped on civil rights, one would expect that to show up in the electoral results in the years following the Democrats’ 1964 about-face on the issue. Nothing of the sort happened: Of the 21 Democratic senators who opposed the 1964 act, only one would ever change parties. Nor did the segregationist constituencies that elected these Democrats throw them out in favor of Republicans: The remaining 20 continued to be elected as Democrats or were replaced by Democrats. It was, on average, nearly a quarter of a century before those seats went Republican. If southern rednecks ditched the Democrats because of a civil-rights law passed in 1964, it is strange that they waited until the late 1980s and early 1990s to do so.

And yet this myth persists — in fact, it’s just about the only response today’s Democrats have to their own sordid history: pinning it on the other guy. It makes them profoundly uncomfortable that among the 21 who voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 can be found Albert Arnold Gore, Sr., the founder of the Hillbilly Dynasty; Robert “KKK” Byrd, the Conscience of the Senate; and Sleepin’ Sam Ervin of Watergate fame.

Just for laughs, let’s take a look at the electoral maps for 1968 (Nixon-Humphrey), 1972 (Nixon-McGovern), 1976 (Carter-Ford), and 1992 (Clinton-Bush) to see how the South voted.

First, 1968, as the Vietnam War approached its high-water mark and the antiwar movement was starting to roll:

Nixon picked up some of the states of the Old Confederacy, largely because of their pro-military tradition and support for the war. “Wallace,” for those of you born yesterday, was Democrat George Wallace, a rabid segregationist who founded the American Independent Party and ran for president on its ticket. He won 13 percent of the popular vote, and carried five states in the Deep South for a total of 46 electoral votes.

Four years later, Nixon faced the first modern Democratic Party presidential candidate, George McGovern, who ran on a “Come Home, America” platform, and on whose campaign many of today’s radicals cut their teeth. Two items of note in the linked video clip: Missouri Senator Tom Eagleton was McGovern’s first running mate, who got dumped by the Compassion Party after it came out that he had been hospitalized for clinical depression and had undergone shock therapy. The other is McGovern’s extensive quote from “This Land is Your Land,” a hit for Peter, Paul and Mary written by the communist fellow-traveler, Woody Guthrie.

Yes, the South voted for the Republican — but so did every other state except for Massachusetts, which was the first indication of just how far gone the Bay State already was.

Four years later, Nixon was in San Clemente in the aftermath of Watergate, and a Southern governor named Jimmy Carter, whose only claim to the White House was that he was not RMN, was running against the Accidental President, Jerry Ford:

Yes, twelve years after the Solid South supposedly flipped to the GOP, here it was, back again, helping to elevate a native son past the Michigander. The two Reagan wipeouts of 1980 and 1984 began the alignment of the South with the GOP — but it was partly reversed by Bill Clinton in 1992:

Kevin concludes:

The Republican ascendancy in Dixie is associated with the rise of the southern middle class, the increasingly trenchant conservative critique of Communism and the welfare state, the Vietnam controversy and the rise of the counterculture, law-and-order concerns rooted in the urban chaos that ran rampant from the late 1960s to the late 1980s, and the incorporation of the radical Left into the Democratic party. Individual events, especially the freak show that was the 1968 Democratic convention, helped solidify conservatives’ affiliation with the Republican party. Democrats might argue that some of these concerns — especially welfare and crime — are “dog whistles” or “code” for race and racism, but this criticism is shallow in light of the evidence and the real saliency of those issues among U.S. voters of all backgrounds and both parties for decades. Indeed, Democrats who argue that the best policies for black Americans are those that are soft on crime and generous with welfare are engaged in much the same sort of cynical racial calculation President Johnson was practicing when he informed skeptical southern governors that his plan for the Great Society was “to have them niggers voting Democratic for the next two hundred years.” Johnson’s crude racism is, happily, largely a relic of the past, but his strategy endures.

So the next time a Regressive tries to repeat the Thurmond myth, show him the maps — and make the Democrats own their history. They don’t like it very much, and who can blame them?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:57 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I owe a couple folks responses on this stuff already, but in the meantime, I have a quick question to those drawing a perfect equivalence between anti-black and anti-white racism in the contemporary United States: Do you also see no difference between anti-Jewish and anti-Germanic racism in contemporary Germany? Do context and history have no relevance to your evaluation of the moral and, more importantly, practical implications of the two?


Quite frankly, I'd suggest anyone with "anti-Germanic" leanings should probably get the **** out of Germany. It's rather rude to go live someplace and hold a grudge against the locals.

And where's that leave Yiddish people? They'd be hated by both the Anti-Germanic and the Anti-Jewish racists.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Let's put it another way, Aizle...

How much outrage would there be over a whites-only fraternity in the north?
-I'm guessing a lot. The schools probably wouldn't allow them to operate.

This goes back to the conversation I had with Khross. I do think he's right. The vast majority of racism in America is by members of the black community, against whites. This is irrespective of the fact that south of the mason-dixon line, you still have hicktown backwater communities that have never really accepted the Emancipation Proclamation.


I don't disagree, but at the same time one has to consider context in this stuff.

Black only fraternities exist because it used to be the only way someone who was black could get into a fraternity. They have since become strong fraternities in their own right with a rich history, which obviously they are loath to give up.

Are they racist? Certainly. But I understand why they are and frankly cut them more slack because of the history and context behind it. It is my sincere hope that in another few generations that we'll be able to get past all of this silliness entirely but I also understand that's probably a pipe dream.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:11 pm 
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150 years is a fairly long time, you know. Where's the cutoff point? Do Christians still have a legitimate grievance against Italians for throwing them to lions?

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Last edited by Talya on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Aizle wrote:
That said, I'm not a fan of organizations that differentiate themselves on race alone, outside of assistance organizations.


I missed this.

Really? You'd have no issues with an organization, for example, dedicated to stamping out white poverty and illiteracy, and limiting their assistance in that manner?


My intent behind that statement was that while I don't like organizations that define themselves by race, I do understand that there are races that have had a long history of oppression and abuse here in the US, and I can understand why they may need a specialized organization to assist them. Around here, Native American organizations are a good example of such a thing.

That said, I'm pretty sure there are any number of Russian, German, Irish, Finnish, etc. groups out there that differentiate on race, which in reality is just ethnicity. I don't typically get up in arms about them either.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
That said, I'm pretty sure there are any number of Russian, German, Irish, Finnish, etc. groups out there that differentiate on race, which in reality is just ethnicity. I don't typically get up in arms about them either.



That's actually true.

Interesting, ain't it?

An Irish Drinking Club is just fine to set up.
The Red-Headed League wouldn't get anyone up in arms.
A Blonde Neuro-Synaptic Activation Center would be quite popular.

We have some cultural issues here. It's okay to set up something limited by national background, hair color, language...anything you'd like. Except skin color! Well, unless it's black. Then it's okay to limit membership to only black people. But only Asians? I don't think so. Only whites? **** racists, what are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Talya wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
I owe a couple folks responses on this stuff already, but in the meantime, I have a quick question to those drawing a perfect equivalence between anti-black and anti-white racism in the contemporary United States: Do you also see no difference between anti-Jewish and anti-Germanic racism in contemporary Germany? Do context and history have no relevance to your evaluation of the moral and, more importantly, practical implications of the two?


Quite frankly, I'd suggest anyone with "anti-Germanic" leanings should probably get the **** out of Germany. It's rather rude to go live someplace and hold a grudge against the locals.

The term "anti-germanic" is meant to refer to German citizens of non-Jewish descent. Didn't mean to capitalize the "g". Also (hopefully obviously) didn't mean to imply that native Germans (capital G) of Jewish descent are any less "German" than native Germans of non-Jewish descent. If I'm getting the historical distinction and/or terminology wrong, I'd appreciate a correction. Hopefully the point is clear, though: Jewish Germans vs non-Jewish Germans.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Pop Quiz: What would happen if I had a "White Pride" sticker on my car?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:54 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
The term "anti-germanic" is meant to refer to German citizens of non-Jewish descent. Didn't mean to capitalize the "g". Also (hopefully obviously) didn't mean to imply that native Germans (capital G) of Jewish descent are any less "German" than native Germans of non-Jewish descent. If I'm getting the historical distinction and/or terminology wrong, I'd appreciate a correction. Hopefully the point is clear, though: Jewish Germans vs non-Jewish Germans.

In that case, no, I really don't.

Very few, of the German people alive today were ever members of Hitler's Nazi party. Fewer still of the Yiddish people in Germany were alive to know the horror of WW2... most heard it from their grandparents, at best. There's no excuse for either.

Lastly, the Jewish communities in general don't need the horror of the holocaust to be racist against everyone else. The derogatory term "goyim" is still the default for how a very large percentage of them think of the rest of us. Why is that? Some combination of religious influence and, oh look, once again a group of people that practically refuses to assimilate into the cultures it inhabits. It is neat, though, how quickly secular jews abandon 3500 years of building a cultural and racial supremacy movement.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:02 am 
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Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree, but at the same time one has to consider context in this stuff.

Black only fraternities exist because it used to be the only way someone who was black could get into a fraternity. They have since become strong fraternities in their own right with a rich history, which obviously they are loath to give up.



So in other, more candid words, you have a blatant double standard.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:17 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree, but at the same time one has to consider context in this stuff.

Black only fraternities exist because it used to be the only way someone who was black could get into a fraternity. They have since become strong fraternities in their own right with a rich history, which obviously they are loath to give up.



So in other, more candid words, you have a blatant double standard.

Only if he objects to someone displaying the confederate flag.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Lastly, the Jewish communities in general don't need the horror of the holocaust to be racist against everyone else. The derogatory term "goyim" is still the default for how a very large percentage of them think of the rest of us. Why is that? Some combination of religious influence and, oh look, once again a group of people that practically refuses to assimilate into the cultures it inhabits. It is neat, though, how quickly secular jews abandon 3500 years of building a cultural and racial supremacy movement.

To correct a bit of a miscomprehension, goy is no more derogatory than gentile. Also, it's not that the Jews refuse to assimilate into the culture(s) they inhabit. Until the US, there was really no culture that allowed them to.

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Israel exists because none of the European countries would accept Jews. Remember kids! Jews killed Jesus.

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DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree, but at the same time one has to consider context in this stuff.

Black only fraternities exist because it used to be the only way someone who was black could get into a fraternity. They have since become strong fraternities in their own right with a rich history, which obviously they are loath to give up.


So in other, more candid words, you have a blatant double standard.


No, in other words I appreciate subtlety and the fact that things aren't, pardon the pun, always black and white.


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shuyung wrote:
To correct a bit of a miscomprehension, goy is no more derogatory than gentile. Also, it's not that the Jews refuse to assimilate into the culture(s) they inhabit. Until the US, there was really no culture that allowed them to.



I had actually typed "gentile" before I decided to replace it with the Hebrew/Yiddish equivalent. They're both derogatory, much like "pagan" was derogatory when used by a Christian. Your foreskin (assuming you have one) makes you unclean to them (even if you have some Jewish heritage). It's an odd situation, because of course a religion that believes itself to be the only correct way to serve God is going to view outsiders negatively. But Christianity was evangelical, and not racially exclusive. While the Jewish faith has always allowed proselytes, it doesn't encourage them (and even, at times, discourages them)... membership in the twelve tribes of the Chosen People has always been racially biased.

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Aizle wrote:
That said, I'm not a fan of organizations that differentiate themselves on race alone, outside of assistance organizations.

...

That... makes absolutely no **** sense.

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Aizle wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree, but at the same time one has to consider context in this stuff.

Black only fraternities exist because it used to be the only way someone who was black could get into a fraternity. They have since become strong fraternities in their own right with a rich history, which obviously they are loath to give up.


So in other, more candid words, you have a blatant double standard.


No, in other words I appreciate subtlety and the fact that things aren't, pardon the pun, always black and white.



No, you're just a hypocrite. You don't want equality. You want to stand up for your chosen group and then pat yourself on the back and fool yourself into thinking you are doing something noble and you are on the side that is right. You don't want fair. You don't want everyone to be treated the same.

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Talya wrote:
I had actually typed "gentile" before I decided to replace it with the Hebrew/Yiddish equivalent. They're both derogatory, much like "pagan" was derogatory when used by a Christian. Your foreskin (assuming you have one) makes you unclean to them (even if you have some Jewish heritage). It's an odd situation, because of course a religion that believes itself to be the only correct way to serve God is going to view outsiders negatively. But Christianity was evangelical, and not racially exclusive. While the Jewish faith has always allowed proselytes, it doesn't encourage them (and even, at times, discourages them)... membership in the twelve tribes of the Chosen People has always been racially biased.

Neither biblically, historically, nor currently is goy or gentile a derogatory term, except insomuch as it is used to designate non-Jew. In fact, the term "non-Jew" is equally as derogatory, which is to say, you would have to be fairly easily insulted to consider any of them derogatory.

The reason there is no real proselytizing from Jews is simply because it's not required. You can't actually convert. If your direct matrilineal ancestry doesn't terminate in a member of the tribes bound to the Covenant, then sorry.

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shuyung wrote:
Neither biblically, historically, nor currently is goy or gentile a derogatory term, except insomuch as it is used to designate non-Jew. In fact, the term "non-Jew" is equally as derogatory, which is to say, you would have to be fairly easily insulted to consider any of them derogatory.


That's the thing, non-Jew is a derogatory thing to the orthodox Jew. Gentiles are unclean. The Jews are God's chosen people, and everyone else is inferior.

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If your direct matrilineal ancestry doesn't terminate in a member of the tribes bound to the Covenant, then sorry.

That's actually surprisingly not true. The Torah and Talmud give specifics, but proselytes from the nations who became circumcised and followed Jewish law were to be considered Jews. The religion may be racially focused, but it's not entirely exclusive. They just don't like to advertise the fact, as it were. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_tzedek

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Talya wrote:
That's the thing, non-Jew is a derogatory thing to the orthodox Jew. Gentiles are unclean. The Jews are God's chosen people, and everyone else is inferior.

It's not derogatory, just unfortunate. It's more of a "You're not Jewish. Too bad, but good luck". And yes, the Jews are God's chosen people. By definition, that makes everyone else inferior.
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That's actually surprisingly not true. The Torah and Talmud give specifics, but proselytes from the nations who became circumcised and followed Jewish law were to be considered Jews. The religion may be racially focused, but it's not entirely exclusive. They just don't like to advertise the fact, as it were. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_tzedek

It's more true than you are willing to accept. Sure, the Jews are willing to let someone think they're really part of the tribe, but everyone knows they're not.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I don't disagree, but at the same time one has to consider context in this stuff.

Black only fraternities exist because it used to be the only way someone who was black could get into a fraternity. They have since become strong fraternities in their own right with a rich history, which obviously they are loath to give up.


So in other, more candid words, you have a blatant double standard.


No, in other words I appreciate subtlety and the fact that things aren't, pardon the pun, always black and white.


What does subtlety have to do with excusing discrimination based upon race for some groups and not for others?

It's still racial discrimination, by private entities, within the United States. Given that you said that this would be hated in "the northern US", yet it is both tolerated and encouraged, that would make it a double standard both in behavior and rhetoric.

So, a double double standard?

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