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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Forgive my rather lacking biological knowledge, but I'm fairly certain Spontaneous Generation remains a valid hypothesis for the first organism; it's only disproven if life already exists.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation


This is the process I was referring to.


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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:47 pm 
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TheRiov's Link wrote:
Disproof of the traditional ideas of spontaneous generation is no longer controversial among professional biologists. Objections and doubts have been dispelled by studies and documentation of the life cycles of various life forms. However, the principles of the very different matter of the original abiogenesis on this planet — of living from non-living material — still are under investigation.[3][4]
Seems to say exactly what I thought.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:49 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Bottom line on that particular sub-topic:
HIGW/HICC is a theory. As long as it's taught as a theory: no problem. In fact, it would actually be a very good case study about what the different is between a theory and a demonstrable science "fact."


I'm going to agree with the spirit of your post while taking extreme exception to your statement.
A scientific theory is not the same thing as the vernacular statement, "I have a theory." Is Evolution a theory? Yes. So what is a theory?

The National Academy of Science defines it this way:
Quote:
Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

The contention that evolution should be taught as a "theory, not as a fact" confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.


While Evolution fits that definition, HIGW/HICC has never held up to the same standard to count as a "theory." They are correllations that show strong evidence that humans are likely influencing the climate, but to what extent, and what the consequences of that influence will be, are nothing more than conjecture. Climatology is in its infancy. There are no "end points" in that science.

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Last edited by Talya on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:51 pm 
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I reject your premise entirely. I am furthermore delighted that you have chosen the atomic model as your example, as I had intended to use that very concept in my previous post. So we have a good place to start from.

The Dalton model is wrong. We know it's wrong, and we have known for a hundred years. We knew it was wrong almost immediately after it was postulated. Why does the incorrect planetary model persist, while other incorrect models of the day have fallen by the wayside? Look at the current understanding of the atom, and you will see that the Dalton model is not wrong so much as it is incomplete.

The core idea of the Dalton model is quite correct, and unlikely to change. There is a cluster of baryons, and a group of moving electrons separated from the baryon cluster by some distance. What the Dalton model gets wrong is the nature of the electrons' relative motion with respect to the baryon cluster. Those precise mechanics are not of terrible import to most chemists.

However, one can use the early models of the atom to demonstrate how science works. We ran this experiment, discovered something weird was going on, and had to update our understanding of the atom. Another experiment yielded more strange results, which then had to be explained and a previous model had to be done away with.

Dalton's model is significant because that is where chemistry stops. Most chemists don't even have a very solid understanding of why the Dalton model is incorrect. They know it is, and they can tell you that we have new models which are more accurate, but most lack the background in electromagnetics and mathematics to explain why Dalton's model can't be correct. It simply isn't that relevant to most chemists that charged particles emit electromagnetic radiation when they undergo an acceleration.

There were no experiments done to disprove Dalton's model. Oh, there may have been some performed later for verification, but there weren't any to actually disprove it. A group of physicists took a look at the planetary model and said, "Bullshit. As you can clearly see from Maxwell's equations, electrons moving in such a fashion would continually lose kinetic energy and crash into the nucleus. This model is highly unstable."

Niels Bohr then presented the notion that there were certain distances from the nucleus where such emissions did not occur. Bohr's model is also wrong, but it led us to quantum numbers which are very well documented in particle physics. From the Bohr model on, the atomic model has been firmly within the domain of physics.

So why Dalton? Because Dalton gives a picture of what's going in your mind, as well as a physical structure that you can look at. The Dalton model still gives the basic picture that one thinks of when they try to imagine electron clouds. "It's like the Earth going around the sun, only more complicated." Using the Dalton model is like thinking of the telegraph as a cat that stretches from one end of the continent to the other. You pull on its tail in New York and it meows in Los Angeles. Then, you imagine radio the same way, only without the cat.

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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:04 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
As I've pointed out several times on this board and it's prior incarnations, Newtonian mechanics, which we know to be "wrong," got us to the moon. We knew that model was wrong when we designed the moon landings! We also knew that Newtonian mechanics don't diverge significantly from the current model until speeds in excess of half the speed of light.

Not quite. The Entire GPS network is dependent on relativity based calculations on time dilation, else it would fall out of sync with the Earth rapidly, and the satellites do not travel even 1% of the speed of light, so to that extent 'significant' is far far below the speed of light. Newtonian calculations were used because they were approximations and were within the error margins, but by 1969 general relativity was well understood.


Just as a minor correction: the time dilation effect that needs to be accounted for in the GPS network has far less to do with the speed the satellites are moving, and far more to do with their altitude. Proximity to a large enough gravity well causes a significant time dilation effect.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:14 pm 
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I believe I implied that both flavors of relativity were well understood by 1969 when I said we knew Newtonian mechanics weren't fully correct when we designed the moon mission. As Taly points out, it is general and not special relativity that governs error in the GPS system. Finally, I didn't say anything about the GPS system. I said that Newtonian mechanics got us to the moon. If you throw a rock calculated to strike the moon according to the laws of physics in place before relativity, the laws of physics as known after relativity can verify that it will still hit the moon. (Case in point - our shuttle trajectory was calculated based on Newtonian mechanics, and it hit the moon).

Also, our GPS network wasn't really in place until several years later. The developments in digital signal processing that actually allow for GPS calculations to be carried out were going on in the 70s.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Both are at play.

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When two observers are in relative uniform motion and uninfluenced by any gravitational mass, the point of view of each will be that the other's (moving) clock is ticking at a slower rate than the local clock. The faster the relative velocity, the greater the magnitude of time dilation. This case is sometimes called special relativistic time dilation.

For instance, two rocket ships (A and B) speeding past one another in space would experience time dilation. If they somehow had a clear view into each other's ships, each crew would see the others' clocks and movement as going too slowly. That is, inside the frame of reference of Ship A, everything is moving normally, but everything over on Ship B appears to be moving slower (and vice versa).

From a local perspective, time registered by clocks that are at rest with respect to the local frame of reference (and far from any gravitational mass) always appears to pass at the same rate. In other words, if a new ship, Ship C, travels alongside Ship A, it is "at rest" relative to Ship A. From the point of view of Ship A, new Ship C's time would appear normal too.[4]

A question arises: If Ship A and Ship B both think each other's time is moving slower, who will have aged more if they decided to meet up? With a more sophisticated understanding of relative velocity time dilation, this seeming twin paradox turns out not to be a paradox at all (the resolution of the paradox involves a jump in time, as a result of the accelerated observer turning around). Similarly, understanding the twin paradox would help explain why astronauts on the ISS age slower (e.g. 0.007 seconds behind for every 6 months) even though they are experiencing relative velocity time dilation.


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Gravitational time dilation is at play for ISS astronauts too, and it has the opposite effect of the relative velocity time dilation. To simplify, velocity and gravity each slow down time as they increase. Velocity has increased for the astronauts, slowing down their time, whereas gravity has decreased, speeding up time (the astronauts are experiencing less gravity than on Earth). Nevertheless, the ISS astronaut crew ultimately end up with "slower" time because the two opposing effects are not equally strong. The velocity time dilation (explained above) is making a bigger difference, and slowing down time. The (time-speeding up) effects of low-gravity would not cancel out these (time-slowing down) effects of velocity unless the ISS orbited much farther from Earth.

The key is that both observers are differently situated in their distance from a significant gravitational mass. The general theory of relativity describes how, for both observers, the clock that is closer to the gravitational mass, i.e. deeper in its "gravity well", appears to go slower than the clock that is more distant from the mass. This effect is not restricted to astronauts in space; a climber's time is passing slightly faster at the top of a mountain (a high altitude, farther from the Earth's center of gravity) compared to people at sea level. As with all time dilation, the local experience of time is normal (nobody notices a difference within their own frame of reference). In the situations of velocity time dilation, both observers saw the other as moving slower (a reciprocal effect). Now, with gravitational time dilation, both observers—those at sea level, versus the climber—agree that the clock nearer the mass is slower in rate, and they agree on the ratio of the difference (time dilation from gravity is therefore not reciprocal). That is, the climber sees the sea level clocks as moving slower, and those living at sea level see the climber as moving faster.



Emphasis mine. The altitude/speed are both factors so I snagged them for the ISS (whats mentioned in this article)
7,706.6 m/s, apogee is 424,000 meters, perigee 402,00 meters.

and for a geostationary orbit (note that geostat orbits are much larger than most)
~3,070 m/s and an altitude of ~35,786,000 meters


I should note that the GPS constellation doesn't fly in geostat orbit, but about half that IIRC.

I am aware that both are at play, but the whole point of the original post was simply to draw issue with the statement that you didn't have to compensate for relativistic effects before a significant fraction of c


Edit: Just a little more data, just because I finally found it--GPS orbits are about 26,600,000 km, with an orbital period of just under 12 hours.


Last edited by TheRiov on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Let me put it another way, TheRiov.

Time Dilation from velocity has a very minor effect of slowing time for the GPS satelites.

However, time on the GPS satellites is moving faster than on earth, to the tune of 38 microseconds a day. All special relativity is doing is somewhat mitigating the time dilation effect from the GPS satellites being further outside earth's gravity well.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
I believe I implied that both flavors of relativity were well understood by 1969 when I said we knew Newtonian mechanics weren't fully correct when we designed the moon mission. As Taly points out, it is general and not special relativity that governs error in the GPS system. Finally, I didn't say anything about the GPS system. I said that Newtonian mechanics got us to the moon. If you throw a rock calculated to strike the moon according to the laws of physics in place before relativity, the laws of physics as known after relativity can verify that it will still hit the moon. (Case in point - our shuttle trajectory was calculated based on Newtonian mechanics, and it hit the moon).

Also, our GPS network wasn't really in place until several years later. The developments in digital signal processing that actually allow for GPS calculations to be carried out were going on in the 70s.

I'm not generally disagreeing with you, (except for that part about shuttles hitting the moon) though as I've pointed out, both general and special relativistic effects must be compensated for to achieve the precision the GPS system does.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:42 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Bottom line on that particular sub-topic:
HIGW/HICC is a theory. As long as it's taught as a theory: no problem. In fact, it would actually be a very good case study about what the different is between a theory and a demonstrable science "fact."

Climate change itself is not, however, a theory. See: the ice age, and the various "warm periods" of the last 2000 years. Again, this would be a good counterpoint to the theory lesson I just mentioned, serving as the counterweight.

You demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of what a theory is in relation to a fact.

To whit, this entire conversation between all individuals, is being governed by:

Electromagnetic theory
Circuit theory
Control theory
The theory of relativity
Gravitational theory
Communications theory

These things are all just theories. They're also keeping satellites in the air, converting your finger motions into typed words and then into data, processing that data, transmitting that data back and forth, and updating that data as each person adds their typed words to the mix.

Here are four laws. They are, in order: Gauss' Law for Electric Flux, Gauss' Law for Magnetic Flux, Faraday's Law, and Ampere's Law.

Attachment:
Maxwell.png
Maxwell.png [ 3.89 KiB | Viewed 1842 times ]

Observe the form those laws take. That is what a law really looks like. These laws are arguably the most important laws we've ever discovered. They are certainly the laws most used in our daily lives. They govern every physical interaction that happens on this planet, including the one that keeps us on the surface. Why are these laws so important? How do these laws exert such a vast influence on everything we do?

Electromagnetic theory explains that. Above four of the most important laws in the annals of physics, you have a theory. Those four laws are useless without a theory to explain how they work and what they accomplish. Facts are for developing laws, and laws are for developing a theory.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
I stopped reading when I hit this snag in logic:

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In many respects, the standards are meant to do for science what a separate set of guidelines known as the Common Core is supposed to do for English and mathematics: impose and raise standards, with a focus on critical thinking and primary investigation. To date, 45 states and Washington have adopted the Common Core standards.


Since 35% of our high school graduates are functionally illiterate, and only 7% of our population can perform 8th grade level math; basing science education on this "common core" principle seems a losing proposition.


I just want to point this out here:

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Although the average scores among American students were not significantly lower than the top performers, several nations far outstripped the United States in the proportion of students who scored at the highest levels on the math and science tests.

In the United States, only 7 percent of students reached the advanced level in eighth-grade math, while 48 percent of eighth graders in Singapore and 47 percent of eighth graders in South Korea reached the advanced level. As those with superior math and science skills increasingly thrive in a global economy, the lag among American students could be a cause for concern.


Given that, I'm not sure if "winning" at this competition is worth the cost. Do you know what South Korean middle and high school is like? It's complete and utter hell.


Do you know what basic versus advanced 8th grade level math is?

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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Middle and high school are complete and utter hell here, too.

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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Midway through the video, you will see what it looks like when I do math.


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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Oh, and the title of this thread keeps making me hear the Science Vessel going "SCIENCE HURTS!!"

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Talya wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Bottom line on that particular sub-topic:
HIGW/HICC is a theory. As long as it's taught as a theory: no problem. In fact, it would actually be a very good case study about what the different is between a theory and a demonstrable science "fact."


I'm going to agree with the spirit of your post while taking extreme exception to your statement.
A scientific theory is not the same thing as the vernacular statement, "I have a theory." Is Evolution a theory? Yes. So what is a theory?

The National Academy of Science defines it this way:
Quote:
Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

The contention that evolution should be taught as a "theory, not as a fact" confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.


While Evolution fits that definition, HIGW/HICC has never held up to the same standard to count as a "theory." They are correllations that show strong evidence that humans are likely influencing the climate, but to what extent, and what the consequences of that influence will be, are nothing more than conjecture. Climatology is in its infancy. There are no "end points" in that science.


Fair enough. In fact, that could be a further lesson regarding climate science that we could teach. The difference between theory, hypothesis, and whatever else there is, using evolution, HIGW/HICC, and say.... the earth revolves around the sun.


Edit: Also, you're not really taking exception anyway. You're debating critical semantics. Which, as I've often said (and this is a perfect example): despite what the internet wants you to think, semantics matter.

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I'm not sure that HIGW/HICC is even in the same class of science.

Climate Change is a phenomena. Just as the Northern lights are a phenomena. Its an observation.

Human Influence is also a phenomena. We can demonstrate that our activities change environment on a small scale.

The only real debate is the degree to which human activity has or is affecting climate change. It may well be that solar cycles, or any of a number of other causes are the dominating influence on weather patterns.

But that is a question of DEGREE not a question of mechanism. Scientific theory is more about mechanism, than degree.

I really hate the terms HICC or HIGW or HIGCC--because the fact that there *IS* human influence on climate has really never been up for debate. The only debate is really one of degree.


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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Dalton's model is significant because that is where chemistry stops. Most chemists don't even have a very solid understanding of why the Dalton model is incorrect. They know it is, and they can tell you that we have new models which are more accurate, but most lack the background in electromagnetics and mathematics to explain why Dalton's model can't be correct. It simply isn't that relevant to most chemists that charged particles emit electromagnetic radiation when they undergo an acceleration.


And here is where we will agree to disagree. I don't see how a chemist could get past their second year without having to understand why this is a horribly untrue approximation.

And from teaching chemistry at the college level, the number one struggle most kids have (besides basic math) is that they think electrons orbit. And then you try to teach them molecular orbital theory, or complex orbitals, and they theoretically can't make the jump.

Same with trying to explain tunneling in a QM class.

"Most Chemists" don't have a mathematical or EM understanding that far behind "Most Physicists".

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TheRiov wrote:
The only real debate is the degree to which human activity has or is affecting climate change. It may well be that solar cycles, or any of a number of other causes are the dominating influence on weather patterns.

But that is a question of DEGREE not a question of mechanism. Scientific theory is more about mechanism, than degree.

I really hate the terms HICC or HIGW or HIGCC--because the fact that there *IS* human influence on climate has really never been up for debate. The only debate is really one of degree.


I think I said that.

As for human influence, of course...A butterfly flaps its wings in Tokyo and stuff. Everything that happens on Earth influences the climate. A cow farting influences the climate. The debate is more than just degree, however. It's not just how much of an effect, but what effect? We used to call it global warming, but they've changed it to "climate change," because it's not always warming. We also don't know what net effect that warming will have. Just because humans are changing nature, does not make it bad. All creatures change nature, by their very existence. We just have the potential for greater effect than most.

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 Post subject: Re: SCIENCE!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Middle and high school are complete and utter hell here, too.


Maybe from the perspective of dealing with other teenagers, but as far as workload goes? No, it isn't. South Korea is a society where switching jobs is heavily frowned upon, the company that hires you out of college is the company you will probably work for your entire life. As such, your entire career/life depends on getting into the best college possible to land the best job possible which means you need a very high score on the university entrance exams after high school.

Of course, everyone knows this so the competition is absolutely ridiculous, it's not uncommon for SK high school students to study from 7 AM to 12 AM, every single day, for their entire high school tenure. Even this level of studying will not net you a competitive score unless you're exceptionally bright, so parents have to send their kids to special private cram schools for tens of thousands a year to help them study even more. If you are male, it's even worse, as high school studying hell is followed by college studying hell which is then followed by conscription into the military, and that's even worse because the SK military could probably win awards for the severity of its training regimen.

The system is so hardcore it's actually destroying their birthrate, which is the lowest in the developed world, because parents know they simply cannot afford to provide a future for more than one or two children.


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Sounds like the exact opposite of the US.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Middle and high school are complete and utter hell here, too.


Maybe from the perspective of dealing with other teenagers, but as far as workload goes? No, it isn't. South Korea is a society where switching jobs is heavily frowned upon, the company that hires you out of college is the company you will probably work for your entire life. As such, your entire career/life depends on getting into the best college possible to land the best job possible which means you need a very high score on the university entrance exams after high school.

Of course, everyone knows this so the competition is absolutely ridiculous, it's not uncommon for SK high school students to study from 7 AM to 12 AM, every single day, for their entire high school tenure. Even this level of studying will not net you a competitive score unless you're exceptionally bright, so parents have to send their kids to special private cram schools for tens of thousands a year to help them study even more. If you are male, it's even worse, as high school studying hell is followed by college studying hell which is then followed by conscription into the military, and that's even worse because the SK military could probably win awards for the severity of its training regimen.

The system is so hardcore it's actually destroying their birthrate, which is the lowest in the developed world, because parents know they simply cannot afford to provide a future for more than one or two children.


Yes, and for that reason SK soldiers are hard soldiers. The average SK soldier is probably the best in the world; as well trained as an American, British, or Israeli, and more hardened to physical adversity. SK officers are professional and skilled; easy to work with but exceedingly competent. You have any idea what the SK Ranger program is like? Let's just say it makes ours look moderately difficult.

That's the way it is for all south Koreans. It's a competitive meritocracy, fueld by the knowledge that they may be in the fight of their lives at any moment against an opponent that, while underfed, ill-equipped, and probably incompetent, is willing to engage in almost any atrocity to stave off defeat and outnumbers them to boot.

This is supposed to be hell? This is a nation that knows its survival is based on its ability to generate economic superiority, and therefore military superiority against an enemy its been at war with for 60 years. One with a large neighbor with unknown intentions. This attitude has pried SK from the joke it was in 1950 to the economic and military powerhouse it is today where it no longer is utterly dependent on the US to avoid being overrun.

Every SK citizen is aware of this. They are the ones that have relatives in Seoul under NK guns.

Middle school and high school in the US are hell. Yes, they're easier, but they are a social madhouse where we essentially let children engage in emotional bloodsport with each other. SK students may have that, but for the most part they're too busy studying. Yea, so they study alot and that might suck from your perspective growing up in the US. They don't put up with half the "hell" we do here because they're all to busy doing something productive with their time.

You think having to go through that military training program is "hell"? Why, because there's no creature comforts? That's the whole idea. That isn't hell; that's learning to do what it takes to survive. What, you think it's awful because you can't conceive of having to make it through something like that?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Middle school and high school in the US are hell. Yes, they're easier, but they are a social madhouse where we essentially let children engage in emotional bloodsport with each other.


All the while not teaching them anything.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:08 pm 
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Müs wrote:
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Middle school and high school in the US are hell. Yes, they're easier, but they are a social madhouse where we essentially let children engage in emotional bloodsport with each other.


All the while not teaching them anything.


Which makes it vastly worse than anything SK does, IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:46 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Yes, and for that reason SK soldiers are hard soldiers. The average SK soldier is probably the best in the world; as well trained as an American, British, or Israeli, and more hardened to physical adversity. SK officers are professional and skilled; easy to work with but exceedingly competent. You have any idea what the SK Ranger program is like? Let's just say it makes ours look moderately difficult.

That's the way it is for all south Koreans. It's a competitive meritocracy, fueld by the knowledge that they may be in the fight of their lives at any moment against an opponent that, while underfed, ill-equipped, and probably incompetent, is willing to engage in almost any atrocity to stave off defeat and outnumbers them to boot.

This is supposed to be hell? This is a nation that knows its survival is based on its ability to generate economic superiority, and therefore military superiority against an enemy its been at war with for 60 years. One with a large neighbor with unknown intentions. This attitude has pried SK from the joke it was in 1950 to the economic and military powerhouse it is today where it no longer is utterly dependent on the US to avoid being overrun.

Every SK citizen is aware of this. They are the ones that have relatives in Seoul under NK guns.

Middle school and high school in the US are hell. Yes, they're easier, but they are a social madhouse where we essentially let children engage in emotional bloodsport with each other. SK students may have that, but for the most part they're too busy studying. Yea, so they study alot and that might suck from your perspective growing up in the US. They don't put up with half the "hell" we do here because they're all to busy doing something productive with their time.

You think having to go through that military training program is "hell"? Why, because there's no creature comforts? That's the whole idea. That isn't hell; that's learning to do what it takes to survive. What, you think it's awful because you can't conceive of having to make it through something like that?


Oh, it's not the military training specifically that I have an issue with, that's just a nice and nasty capstone on having your entire youth taken from you as you're expected to do nothing but work nearly every waking hour from age 14 to 24. Possibly longer, but I have no idea how much workload the military piles on them after they're done training. I've read articles on how this hardcore system is actually responsible for things like Starcraft basically being their national sport - you can steal 20 minutes to play or watch a Starcraft game, but forget about 3 hours to play or watch a soccer or baseball game when you're expected to be studying 16 hours a day every day.

Regardless, it's their country, they can do what they want. I'm just not sure why you think we should be emulating a system that produces 25-year olds that have never been on a date or every done anything fun that takes longer than 30 minutes since puberty.


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