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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Meaning they won't be able to use his statements in court against him. He can still remain silent and ask for a lawyer; they just aren't going to remind him of that.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:52 pm 
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They probably do not expect him to live very long, so they are making **** up as they go to get what information they can.

Yeah, that special public safety powers thing reeks of creative legalese, especially with no citation.

He's young, looks like he is in reasonable shape. He might fool them and live. Of course,they may have enough evidence already that what he says means diddly and won't be needed in court. They are trying to get his cohorts before he regains his wits.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:55 pm 
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No, that sounds like The Patriot Act to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Why exactly aren't we reading him his rights? Is this a ploy to leave the "enemy combatant" classification open as a possibility?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Is he a citizen? Does that matter?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:49 pm 
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He became a naturalized citizen last year.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:26 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Why exactly aren't we reading him his rights? Is this a ploy to leave the "enemy combatant" classification open as a possibility?

Probably.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:07 pm 
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The rationale I heard was that in cases of imminent threat - "Are there more threats (bomb materials, cohorts, etc.) that we need to know about?" - they can skip the Miranda rights. Not sure how long that rationale applies, though.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:38 am 
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They invoked the "Danger to Public Safety" clause
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning
wiki wrote:
Public safety exception

The Miranda rule is not, however, absolute. An exception exists in cases of "public safety". This limited and case-specific exception allows certain unadvised statements (given without Miranda warnings) to be admissible into evidence at trial when they were elicited in circumstances where there was great danger to public safety.[8]

The public safety exception derives from New York v. Quarles (1984), a case in which the Supreme Court considered the admissibility of a statement elicited by a police officer who apprehended a rape suspect who was thought to be carrying a firearm. The arrest took place in a crowded grocery store. When the officer arrested the suspect, he found an empty shoulder holster, handcuffed the suspect, and asked him where the gun was. The suspect nodded in the direction of the gun (which was near some empty cartons) and said, "The gun is over there". The Supreme Court found that such an unadvised statement was admissible in evidence because "[i]n a kaleidoscopic situation such as the one confronting these officers, where spontaneity rather than adherence to a police manual is necessarily the order of the day, the application of the exception we recognize today should not be made to depend on post hoc findings at a suppression hearing concerning the subjective motivation of the police officer".[9] Thus, the jurisprudential rule of Miranda must yield in "a situation where concern for public safety must be paramount to adherence to the literal language of the prophylactic rules enunciated in Miranda".

The rule of Miranda is not, therefore, absolute and can be a bit more elastic in cases of public safety.[8] Under this exception, to be admissible in the government's direct case at a trial, the questioning must not be "actually compelled by police conduct which overcame his will to resist," and must be focused and limited, involving a situation "in which police officers ask questions reasonably prompted by a concern for the public safety."[10]

In 2010, the Federal Bureau of Investigation encouraged agents to use a broad interpretation of public safety-related questions in terrorism cases, stating that the "magnitude and complexity" of terrorist threats justified "a significantly more extensive public safety interrogation without Miranda warnings than would be permissible in an ordinary criminal case," continuing to list such examples as: "questions about possible impending or coordinated terrorist attacks; the location, nature and threat posed by weapons that might pose an imminent danger to the public; and the identities, locations, and activities or intentions of accomplices who may be plotting additional imminent attacks." A Department of Justice spokesman described this position as not altering the constitutional right, but as clarifying existing flexibility in the rule.[11]


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 am 
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The issue is that they don't know if it's just these 2 working alone or if they are part of a larger cell/organization. That's the why.

So if the guy survives and convinces them it was just the 2 of them, that will probably be the end of it.

My suspicion is that they feel they have more than enough hard evidence to convict him without needing any statements from him directly, so it's all about info gathering around other possible threats.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:55 am 
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Again, not reading his rights is not the same as not letting him exercise his rights. It only means he will not receive a reminder of those rights, nor a direct question as to whether he understands them.

Miranda did not create the right to remain silent, nor the right to an attorney, or any of the other things the Miranda advisory discusses. Those always existed and people could always exercise them. The basis of Miranda was that the court determined that the police could not simply assume that a person understood their rights against self-incrimination. After that case, a Miranda advisory was required in order to use a person's statements against them.

The reason they aren't reading him his rights has nothing to do with him, at all. It has to do with not talking him into clamming up about other people he or his brother might have been involved in. A person's rights exist to protect that person, not to protect anyone else, so there is no reason he needs to be read those rights in order to gain information for that purpose, not to mention that it would be intelligence information, not for introduction in court at all.

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My suspicion is that they feel they have more than enough hard evidence to convict him without needing any statements from him directly, so it's all about info gathering around other possible threats.


This. There is nothing the least bit sinister or unusual about someone not being read Miranda. It's done every day, because crimes occur all the time where no statement from the subject is needed. Driving with a suspended license is a perfect example. You observe a violation, stop the person, in the process of writing the ticket discover they don't have a valid license, make the arrest, process it, and off to court it goes. The entire case is based on what was observed. Even if you ask the driver something like "did you know your license was suspended?" it won't be admitted in court because it's both unnecessary and irrelevant, so there's no requirement for Miranda.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:33 am 
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Just a minor aside ...

Fourth Amendment anyone?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:41 am 
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FarSky wrote:
Why exactly aren't we reading him his rights? Is this a ploy to leave the "enemy combatant" classification open as a possibility?

The public safety exception isn't just about whether or not to read him his rights ahead of time; it's about whether or not questioning can continue even after he affirmatively invokes those rights. Generally, if a suspect says, "I refuse to answer any questions," or "I want a lawyer now," all questioning is supposed to stop immediately and not resume unless the suspect later changes his mind and waives his rights to silence or counsel. The public safety exception, however, allows investigators to continue questioning the suspect despite such invocations. That's really what this is all about, in my opinion. They just want to be able to keep questioning him. NB: the Supreme Court has never actually ruled on whether the public safety exception applies to the right to counsel (as opposed to the right to silence), but a couple of lower courts have, so it probably works there too.

That said, the exception isn't carte blanche for investigators to ask about anything they want. The questioning has to be reasonably related to the public safety concern that triggers the exception, and the underlying public safety concern itself has to be (or at least had to be, pre-9/11) a reasonably narrow/defined issue. Also, it's important to bear in mind that all the public safety exception allows for is the continuation of questioning. It doesn't allow for actual violations of a suspects substantive rights - he still can't be coerced into speaking; he can't be deprived of due process; and he can't be denied a lawyer.


Last edited by RangerDave on Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:45 am 
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Khross wrote:
Just a minor aside ...

Fourth Amendment anyone?

I know, right!? I was so frustrated that in all the endlessly repeating coverage on Friday, not one of the major networks (at least that I saw) chose to at least fill some time with a meaningful discussion of the Fourth Amendment problems raised by the house-to-house searches. I kind of wish the cops had stumbled onto a marijuana grow-house or something and arrested the occupants so we could get a court ruling on the issue (though with the courts' current disdain for the 4th, I doubt I'd like the result).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:00 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Miranda is there for the purpose of the protecting the rights of the person arrested....and it has nothing to do with questioning and everything to do with admissibility.

Well, yes and no. The idea behind Miranda, if I remember correctly, is that a formal police interrogation is so inherently coercive that some additional safeguards (i.e. the Miranda warning) are necessary to ensure that any statements given or waivers of rights are genuinely voluntary and not the result of intimidation/coercion. As you say, a simple violation of Miranda usually just means the resulting statements can't be admitted into evidence, but in extreme cases, deliberate and/or systematic efforts to get around Miranda can rise to the level of a substantive violation of the suspect's rights and may even lead to liability for a civil rights violation under USC Sect. 1983. The facts have to be really egregious for that though.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:43 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
I was so frustrated that in all the endlessly repeating coverage on Friday, not one of the major networks (at least that I saw) chose to at least fill some time with a meaningful discussion of the Fourth Amendment problems raised by the house-to-house searches.


The news ceased to be a method for any type of informed discussion long ago.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:28 pm 
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This article raises a good point: a more worrisome issue than delayed Miranda warnings in these terror cases is delayed presentment.

Now, thus far, I’m actually not that worked up about Miranda rights (though I may get there soon). As Orin Kerr explains, the public safety exception is a legally recognized law, and Miranda itself only limits what can be admitted as testimony against Dzhokhar in his trial (I’m betting he’ll plead guilty in any case). The government appears to have so much evidence against him in any case, any confession he makes will likely not be necessary to convict him.

...But the big issue, in my opinion, is presentment, whether he is brought before a judge within 48 hours. In addition to stretching Miranda, the government has also been holding and interrogating suspects for periods — up to two weeks for American citizens and far longer for non-citizens — before they see a judge. Not only does this postpone the time when they will be given a lawyer whether they ask or not (because judges are going to assign one), but it gives the government an uninterrupted period of time to use soft coercion to get testimony and other kinds of cooperation.

...What the government did by delaying presentment in [the cases of Faisal Shahzad and Manssor Arbabsiar, discussed in the linked article] was to afford itself a 2 week period of oversight free interrogation. And there are at least hints — hints that, because both men ultimately plead out, we’ll never learn more about — that the interrogations used some of the same techniques we’re supposed to have left behind [i.e. coercion via threats of reprisals against family members and sleep/food deprivation, as discussed in the linked article].

This is my biggest concern - not simply that Miranda warnings aren't given in this particular case, but that in terror cases more generally, we're moving toward a pre-trial interrogation process that is less and less subject to standard Constitutional protections. Just like the War on Drugs gradually (and significantly) undermined 4th Amendment protections, the War on Terror seems to be pushing us down a similar slippery slope with respect to 5th and 6th Amendment protections.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:33 pm 
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RangerDave:

Duh? What part of "trusting the government with more power always results in an abuse of that power" did you miss?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:56 pm 
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What's all this horseshit discussion about prosecuting him as an enemy combatant? US citizen on US soil? WTF


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
What's all this horseshit discussion about prosecuting him as an enemy combatant? US citizen on US soil? WTF

At least they didn't take him out with a drone strike, although they could have by this rationale.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
What's all this horseshit discussion about prosecuting him as an enemy combatant? US citizen on US soil? WTF

It's worth remembering that Jose Padilla was a US citizen arrested on US soil, labeled an enemy combatant, held for 3.5 years without charges and tortured or at least abused to the point of mental illness before he was eventually charged in civilian court (largely to avoid an impending USSC hearing on the matter) and sentenced to 17 years in prison for crimes other than those he was originally arrested for.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
What's all this horseshit discussion about prosecuting him as an enemy combatant? US citizen on US soil? WTF

At least they didn't take him out with a drone strike, although they could have by this rationale.

Nah, they just blindly opened fire with a SWAT team on the boat he was passed out in.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:45 pm 
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So, everybody asking about rights, enemy combatant status, and so forth.... where have you been for the last 12 years?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:53 pm 
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It was okay, then. We knew the brown people did it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:33 pm 
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I'm just surprised noone told the cops to pound sand, you ain't searching my house without a warrant.

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