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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Yes, for equivalent property, mortgage must be cheaper or renting would not yield any profit. Of course, there is the mental headaches of home ownership such upkeep, dealing with HOA and property taxes. Of course these indirectly affect renters and renting has its own host of problems.

But the point is you can rent cheaper than buying in general if you consider non-equivalent property.

Don't forget, home values are denominated in fiat currency which means inflation gives the illusion of appreciation. Denominated in real money such as precious metals, that property has underperformed. All property devalues over time because it wears out. The only way to mitigate this is to continue to build value into the home (additions) or hope the value appreciates due to suburban/urban development. I'd put that cash into equities or commodities every time; maybe even money markets or god-forbid, bonds.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Yes, for equivalent property, mortgage must be cheaper or renting would not yield any profit. Of course, there is the mental headaches of home ownership such upkeep, dealing with HOA and property taxes. Of course these indirectly affect renters and renting has its own host of problems.

But the point is you can rent cheaper than buying in general if you consider non-equivalent property.


Then the problem is people living in places that are bigger than what they need, not in whether they are renting or buying. For any particular size of home, not only does it cost you less to buy, but you're building equity with what you ARE spending, that you can later recapture when you no longer need the home. If you were renting, you'd be paying more, and never get any of it back.

As an example, We're in a house that might actually be slightly too small for us (1500 square feet, 3 bedrooms), though we have no plans to move. We certainly couldn't fit three adults and two children easily in the two bedroom apartment we were in before. Yet we're paying less to live here than we were there.

If people are overextending themselves and getting places too big for what they need, then yeah. Or if you're single and can make do with a bachelor apartment, or married without kids and can make do with a one-bedroom, then renting will save you money. Problem is, that's too small for most people.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:28 am 
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A mortgage here is actually about $500-$1000 per month less than renting. Hell, my mortgage for a 3 bedroom house is 700 a month less than a lot of two bedroom apartments. The rental market in my area is completely screwed.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:11 am 
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Tinfoil hat theory or not?

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Republicans want to limit the number of bullets federal agencies can purchase so American gun owners can buy more.

Oklahoma Sen. Jim Inhofe and Rep. Frank Lucas have introduced a bill that would prohibit every government agency — except the military — from buying more ammunition each month, than the monthly average it purchased from 2001 to 2009.

The lawmakers say the Obama administration is buying up exceedingly high levels of ammunition in an attempt to limit the number of bullets the American public have access to on the open marketplace.

"President Obama has been adamant about curbing law-abiding Americans’ access and opportunities to exercise their Second Amendment rights," said Inhofe.

"One way the Obama Administration is able to do this is by limiting what’s available in the market with federal agencies purchasing unnecessary stockpiles of ammunition.”

The issue came to the forefront this week as the House Oversight and Government Reform subcommittee held a hearing on it, in which Republicans balked at the bulk levels of ammunition the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has amassed over the years.

Democratic Rep. John Tierney (D-Mass.) questioned whether "conspiracy theories" about government attempts to strip American gun owners of their bullets or government plans to stockpile bullets in preparation for a civil war were the driving motivation for the hearing. He pointed to the overwhelming role the blogosphere has played in questioning why DHS needs millions of rounds of ammunition.

"To the extent that we’re responding to conspiracy theories, I think we’re really wasting everybody’s time on that,” Tierney said.

“Unsubstantiated, false conspiracy theories have no place in this committee room, hopefully. Federal ammunition purchases are a fraction of the ammunition market and they’ve been decreasing in recent years,” he said.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) agreed with Tierney, telling its members last year that the high number of bullet purchases was normal for law enforcement agencies and that people should not be paranoid about the government’s intention on this area.

“Skepticism of government is healthy. But today, there are more than enough actual threats to the Second Amendment to keep gun owners busy… there is no need to invent additional threats to our rights,” the gun group wrote.

But lawmakers in conservative states have been hearing from their constituents on the issue relentlessly. So much so that House Appropriations subcommittee chairman John Carter (R-Texas) pressed Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano on the issue earlier this month.

Napolitano’s DHS has born the brunt of the scrutiny from Capitol Hill, as Republicans criticize the department for making bulk purchases of ammunition — which it says are cheaper, at about 25-cents per bullet — and hoarding already purchased rounds.

In fiscal year 2012, DHS says it bought about 103 million bullets for $36.5 million, giving the department a total of about 246 million rounds stockpiled for training and operational use. The bulk of the ammunition — about 80 percent — is used for training purposes, according to DHS.

With about 70,000 DHS agents who carry guns, Republicans argue the department has amassed too many rounds of ammunition. In a letter to Sen. Tom Coburn, DHS said it planned to spend about $37.2 million on ammunition in fiscal year 2013.

Lucas said the Ammunition Management for More Obtainability (AMMO) Act of 2013 would help curb the rate at which agencies bought up ammunition. He argued that the bill would help preserve the rights of American gun owners.

“After hearing from my constituents about the shortage of ammunition in Oklahoma and the Department of Homeland Security’s profligate purchases of ammunition, we have introduced the AMMO Act of 2013 to curtail these purchases so Americans can exercise their Second Amendment rights without being encumbered by the federal government,” said Lucas.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:15 am 
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Khross wrote:
I'm reminding you that our nation as a whole has serious social-engineering ills from rampant policitization and a general abandonment of a production economy.

What's the nutshell argument for why it would be a bad thing to switch from a production economy to a more service and IP focused economy? We switched from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing economy, and despite the obvious transition pains, that was obviously a good thing, right? I realize those are both types of production, but it was such a huge change (completely reshaping society to a degree that I doubt even the shift to services and IP will match) that it still seems like an appropriate comparison.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:23 am 
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Khross wrote:
If you need a loan to buy something, you can't afford it.

Are you just referring to debt incurred for consumption or for investment as well? I ask because there are certainly times when taking a loan to fund an investment can be profitable (e.g. buying a house in a rising market, initial investment in a start-up with good prospects, increasing the size of a production line to capture economies of scale, expanding operations in a lucrative market, etc.). There are risks associated with leveraged investment, of course, but that's what bankruptcy laws and corporate limited liability are for! ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:24 am 
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Gotta go with tinfoil hat on this one.
Even the NRA thinks this one is nuts.
Even if there are caps on ammunition production that I'm not aware of (a possibility I don't deny) any such plan would be unsustainable.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/0 ... -shortage/

posits a little more likely scenario in my book.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:34 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
What's the nutshell argument for why it would be a bad thing to switch from a production economy to a more service and IP focused economy?
Agriculture is still a production industry, just be mindful of that, RangerDave.

As for your question, the answer is pretty simple: service jobs remove capital from the economy; service jobs deplete wealth.

TheRiov:

As for ammunition shortages and availability issues, it's part government, part supply, part demand, part stupidity, and a few other things. Amazingly, although it has nothing to do with gun control issues, government is the biggest culprit: most shell casings are made of brass; brass duties and tariffs were raised rather substantially in 2012.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Tinfoil hat theory or not?


Personally, I'd call tinfoil hats.

There is a shortage.
The government is buying lots of ammo.


I don't think the latter is the cause of the former. That doesn't mean they're not related. But for the cited article's theory to be correct, it would not only have to be a causal relationship, there would have to be orchestrated intent. I doubt that would be able to be kept under wraps in as large a group as the DHS.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:54 am 
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We're not exactly swimming in ammunition either. This is the first quarter in.. a while, don't exactly remember, that I've been issued ammunition for practice, as opposed to just enough to refill after qualifications.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
We're not exactly swimming in ammunition either. This is the first quarter in.. a while, don't exactly remember, that I've been issued ammunition for practice, as opposed to just enough to refill after qualifications.

According to the numbers cited by the article, DHS has 3500 rounds stockpiled per gun-toting employee.

I'm not familiar with law enforcement/military practice and training regimens, so I can't say with a certainty that that's excessive.

However, the fact that they've got two years' worth of ammunition purchases stockpiled, and continue to increase the rate of purchase, I suspect that the purchases are somewhat excessive.

It's still not enough to be a significant contributing cause of the ammunition shortages, so the notion that it's an orchestrated plan to cause said shortages does seem squarely in tinfoil territory. I don't oppose legislators' attempts to say "hey, guys... knock it off" to profligate ammo purchasing and hoarding policies, though.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:15 pm 
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well, if prices are going up because of shortage, if they're forecasting them to go up further, stockpiling now seems reasonable

edit: or if current contracts involve fixed prices, and new ones will have to be negotiated while prices are high, they could be stockpiling and hoping to be able to hold out until prices fall back again and they're not forced to negotiate while the demand is so high.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Khross wrote:
and generally so poorly socialized after high school and college as to be useless.


Don't start projecting.

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Their houses are generally 10x salary initial purchase because of stupid politics.


Median household income in 2012 was $50k. Median house price was $240k (northeast).

Explain your verifiable statistics.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:58 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Khross wrote:
If you need a loan to buy something, you can't afford it.

Are you just referring to debt incurred for consumption or for investment as well? I ask because there are certainly times when taking a loan to fund an investment can be profitable (e.g. buying a house in a rising market, initial investment in a start-up with good prospects, increasing the size of a production line to capture economies of scale, expanding operations in a lucrative market, etc.). There are risks associated with leveraged investment, of course, but that's what bankruptcy laws and corporate limited liability are for! ;)



My college education is another example of obvious beneficial investment.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Arathain:

You should probably stop playing pop-psychologist; you should also probably not try to win an argument using median statistical numbers when it comes to economics, as both of those are relatively useless. As to the first number, how is it that you pick a number conveniently aligned with the first dollar of non-payroll tax burden for the "Average American Family (tm)" (2.3 kids, 2.7 dogs blah blah blah)? Suspect you didn't think about it that far; you don't do economic analysis as a habit. You'd also have to wonder if 50% of Americans actually had income greater than or equal to that number in 2011 or 2012; that would make things all sorts of problematic. And, just so you understand what I'm getting at here, the median AGI from all tax filings in 2010 was a hair over $33,000; which indicates that the income curve and available cash curve is far different than the number you picked.

Likewise, depending on how we count savings, we're going to end up with widely varied numbers on debt-to-savings ratios, too; so, how do you want to handle that? And what counts as savings, because the government line-item on those numbers includes non-accessible, structured retirement accounts like 401(k)s as savings.

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Last edited by Khross on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
We're not exactly swimming in ammunition either. This is the first quarter in.. a while, don't exactly remember, that I've been issued ammunition for practice, as opposed to just enough to refill after qualifications.

According to the numbers cited by the article, DHS has 3500 rounds stockpiled per gun-toting employee.

I'm not familiar with law enforcement/military practice and training regimens, so I can't say with a certainty that that's excessive.

However, the fact that they've got two years' worth of ammunition purchases stockpiled, and continue to increase the rate of purchase, I suspect that the purchases are somewhat excessive.

It's still not enough to be a significant contributing cause of the ammunition shortages, so the notion that it's an orchestrated plan to cause said shortages does seem squarely in tinfoil territory. I don't oppose legislators' attempts to say "hey, guys... knock it off" to profligate ammo purchasing and hoarding policies, though.


If they have that kind of ammunition stockpiled, it's not making its way to us. There have been complaints about ammunition not being issued for practice, and the excuse has been either "slow delivery" or "funding".

It should be noted that ammunition "purchased" is not necessarily ammunition "delivered". Those 3500 rounds may not be "stockpiled" at all; a large portion of it may be ordered but not delivered.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

You should probably stop playing pop-psychologist; you should also probably not try to win an argument using median statistical numbers when it comes to economics, as both of those are relatively useless.


Not trying to win an argument. I'm suggesting to you that you show your work.

Quote:
As to the first number, how is it that you pick a number conveniently aligned with the first dollar of non-payroll tax burden for the "Average American Family (tm)" (2.3 kids, 2.7 dogs blah blah blah)? Suspect you didn't think about it that far; you don't do economic analysis as a habit. You'd also have to wonder if 50% of Americans actually had income greater than or equal to that number in 2011 or 2012; that would make things all sorts of problematic. And, just so you understand what I'm getting at here, the median AGI from all tax filings in 2010 was a hair over $33,000; which indicates that the income curve and available cash curve is far different than the number you picked.


Just to be clear, I couldn't care less about the particular numbers I pulled off the internet with no research whatsoever, because the entire point of my post is simply to prod you to show your work. I thought I was clear with "explain your verifiable statistics." Perhaps not.

Khross, please show your work.

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Likewise, depending on how we count savings, we're going to end up with widely varied numbers on debt-to-savings ratios, too; so, how do you want to handle that? And what counts as savings, because the government line-item on those numbers includes non-accessible, structured retirement accounts like 401(k)s as savings.


I would like to handle that by telling you to document the assumptions behind your statements, and show your work.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:55 pm 
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There's probably a less obnoxious way to ask about details.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:31 pm 
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But then Khross might provide them, and then Arathain would have to willfully ignore them, as opposed to now when he can just complain that they're not there.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:13 pm 
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California is using their gun owner registry to confiscate guns from criminals and "crazies".

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SACRAMENTO -- Gov. Jerry Brown on Wednesday signed legislation aimed at taking handguns and assault riflesaway from 20,000 Californians who acquired them legally but have since been disqualifiedfrom ownership because of a criminal conviction or serious mental illness.

The measure, the first of several gun-related bills to reach the governor, allocates $24 million in surplus funds to hire dozens of additional special agents to tackle a backlog of 40,000 weapons in the hands of people not allowed to possess firearms.

“This bipartisan bill makes our communities safer by giving law enforcement the resources they need to get guns out of the hands of potentially dangerous individuals,” said Evan Westrup, a spokesman for the governor.

The state operates a database that cross-references a list of gun owners with those disqualified later from owning guns. But, budget cuts have prevented the state Department of Justice from keeping up with the growing number of people on the list.

State Sen. Mark Leno (D-San Francisco) introduced SB 140, which takes the money from fees paid when people buy guns and allocates it to a three-year campaign to take guns from those ineligible to have them.

“We know for the safety of our communities that these people should not possess guns, and our reinvestment in this tracking program gives us the opportunity to confiscate them,” Leno said in a statement.

The measure was opposed by Sam Paredes, executive director of Gun Owners of California, who said it should be paid for by the state general fund.

"Going after criminals is a good thing, but the way they are paying for it is grossly unfair," Paredes said. "They are putting the entire burden on the back of law-abiding gun purchasers."

The measure, supported by state Atty. Gen. Kamala Harris, is one of more than a dozen gun-control bills introduced in the California Legislature following the massacre of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut.

“California is leading the nation in a common-sense effort to protect public safety by taking guns away from dangerous, violent individuals who are prohibited by law from owning them,” Harris said.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:18 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
But then Khross might provide them, and then Arathain would have to willfully ignore them, as opposed to now when he can just complain that they're not there.

As opposed to ignoring something out of duress? I read "willfully ignore" a lot around here. :P

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:56 am 
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Did someone say something?


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:56 am 
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Baby taken from parents who wanted 2nd doctor's opinion

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/377456 ... s-opinion-

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SACRAMENTO, CA (KXTV) - A Sacramento family was torn apart after a 5-month-old baby boy was taken from his parents following a visit to the doctor.

The young couple thought their problems were behind them after their son had a scare at the hospital, but once they got home their problems got even worse.

It all began nearly two weeks ago, when Anna Nikolayev and her husband Alex took their 5-month-old boy Sammy to Sutter Memorial Hospital to be treated for flu symptoms, but they didn't like the care Sammy was getting.

For example, one day Anna asked why a nurse was giving her son antibiotics.

"I asked her, for what is that? And she's like, 'I don't know.' I'm like, 'you're working as a nurse, and you don't even know what to give to my baby for what,'" Anna explained.

According to Anna, a doctor later said Sammy shouldn't have been on the antibiotics.

Anna said Sammy suffers from a heart murmur and had been seeing a doctor at Sutter for regular treatment since he was born. After Sammy was treated for flu symptoms last week, doctors at Sutter admitted him to the pediatric ICU to monitor his condition. After a few days, Anna said doctors began talking about heart surgery.

"If we got the one mistake after another, I don't want to have my baby have surgery in the hospital where I don't feel safe," Anna said.

Anna argued with doctors about getting a second opinion. Without a proper discharge, she finally took Sammy out of the hospital to get a second opinion at Kaiser Permanente.

"The police showed up there. They saw that the baby was fine," Anna said. "They told us that Sutter was telling them so much bad stuff that they thought that this baby is dying on our arms."

Medical records from the doctor treating Sammy at Kaiser Permanente said the baby as clinically safe to go home with his parents. The doctor added, "I do not have concern for the safety of the child at home with his parents."

"So police saw the report from the doctors, said, 'okay guys, you have a good day,' and they walked away," Anna said.

Anna said the next day police and child protective services showed up on her doorstep. Alex Nikolayev said he met them outside a short time after they arrived.

"I was pushed against the building, smacked down. I said, 'am I being placed under arrest?' He smacked me down onto the ground, yelled out, 'I think I got the keys to the house,'" Alex said.

Then police let themselves inside.

On home video shot with a camera Anna set up herself, police can be seen entering her front door on Wednesday.

"I'm going to grab your baby, and don't resist, and don't fight me ok?" a Sacramento police officer said in the video.

"He's like, 'okay let your son go,' so I had to let him go, and he grabbed my arm, so I couldn't take Sammy. And they took Sammy, and they just walked away," Anna said.


CPS said they took the baby from its parents because of "severe neglect"...

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:43 am 
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The lawsuit following this will probably wipe out the $24m in surplus funds that California somehow found, so I suspect that gun owners won't have to worry about their firearms being taken away, now.

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:15 am 
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shuyung wrote:
But then Khross might provide them, and then Arathain would have to willfully ignore them, as opposed to now when he can just complain that they're not there.


Meh, blow me. It sounded wrong, I checked and found some very rough data that continued to make it sound wrong, I posted the rough data, and asked him to explain. That was not obnoxious, it was not trying to "win an argument", and I do not ignore relevant data when I ask for explanations, and I sure as hell don't get bent when people ask me to explain my statements.

The "projecting" statement was a joke.

God damn you people are touchy.


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