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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:23 pm 
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This very interesting (to an uninformed layman anyway) article argues it could have:

Unlike ancient bloodlettings lost to memory, World War I lingers in our collective DNA. The image of the trenches is our icon of hell on earth. Ten million soldiers died in mud-ditches and no-mans-land during the Great War, and we remember this dark narrative because they died for nothing....But there is another irony, sadder still, now forgotten: Medieval armorers and men-at-arms knew a secret that would have spared perhaps 30 percent of those who died in battle.

...If Afghanistan and Iraq were blast and shock wars, World War I was a fragment war. [Bashford Dean, head of the American body armor program circa 1917], writing after the war, cites different medical sources, but the range of casualties due to fragments (artillery and mortars) was as high as 70 to 95 percent.

Steel fragments do not come at the soldier like rifle or machine gun bullets, at high velocity (up to 3000 feet per second). Nearly all of them move at less than 1,000 feet per second. The best helmet steel could and did defeat these. But helmets only protected the head -- and Allied helmets covered the head poorly. Still, 18 to 20-gauge helmet steel (.036-.040 inches) could stop a hot cupro-nickel jacketed 230 grain slug from a .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) fired pointblank. So alloys like silicon nickel or nickel-manganese-vanadium could protect against almost all fragments. With such steels already in high production for helmets, why not protect the torso too?

Enter Bashford Dean and his team. [Metropolitan Museum] armorers crafted a battle harness with complete torso protection, front and back, for about 8.5 pounds With pauldrons (shoulder guards), couters (elbow) and vambraces (forearm), add another 4 pounds With helmet -- and Dean offered the two finest battle helmets of modern times -- it all came to just over 15 pounds Quite wearable, you would think, given that U.S. soldiers' full panoply today can reach 40 pounds, close to 15th century full-body plate armor.

Moreover, Dean's panoply was fully cushioned with "vulcanized sponge-rubber," and with the latest alloys, could stop a .45 ACP at 1000 ft. per second (and a rifle ball at 1250 ft. per second). In terms of coverage, ease and comfort, and raw protection, this was as close as anyone in the war came to the Holy Grail of personal body armor. Deployed in the big American Expeditionary Force (AEF) offensive at the Meuse-Argonne, it could have cut 26,000 battle deaths by one third or more.

So why was nothing done? I believe that there were three impediments worth noting.

The first, fear and loathing of "The Hun" by the Allies was the upfront impediment to American helmet design. Stalhelmophobia lasted for decades. When the U.S. finally adopted a new helmet, the M1 (Pot) in 1941, it was a distinct improvement over the [helmet worn by Allied soldiers in WWI]. But it still held off protecting temple and neck -- for fear it might look too German. Studies show that...had Dean's Model 5, or better yet Model 2, been adopted, it would have saved perhaps another 5,000 American soldiers. Get this: We let 5,000 of our young men die after 1941 because we did not want them to look like Germans.

The second impediment was the myth of weight, as in: those boys will never wear this stuff; they'll throw it off the first opportunity. But in Iraq and Afghanistan, our "boys" wear stuff as heavy as a medieval Gendarme. They suffer up to 40 pounds (with helmet): Not gladly, but dutifully, because it saves lives. Weight was not the real reason but an excuse, a rationalization. The general staffs and higher leadership of that age held a mindset wholly wrong to us. It was not exactly a mindset of death, but rather, in the spirit of that age, of sacrifice for the nation.

Hence, the third reason body armor was not the utmost priority was that leaders of World War I believed that sacrifice was inevitable and necessary in war, and moreover, society would willingly sacrifice its young men on the altar of the nation. We know this from the outpouring at the news of war in August 1914. In Berlin, people were crying out that this was: "A holy moment," lit by the "holy flame of anger," were we passed "out of the misery of everyday life to new heights," to a "rebirth through war," "a revelation," finally to "awaken the belief in the future of our people," in a "wonderful unity of sacrifice, brotherhood, belief." Gertrude Baumer cried, "the limitations of our egos broke down, our blood flowed to the blood of the other, we felt ourselves one body in mystical unification."

The spirit of 1914 did not seek to shepherd and preserve lives at all costs. Today our soldier's lives are a precious treasure we spend at our peril. We are always afraid to lose too many, whatever "too many" might be. But in that breathless time men were kissed and embraced on their journey to death, because their sacrifice would not only renew the nation; but in blood let it come alive. Protecting soldiers was not part of the program.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:37 pm 
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It's almost embarrassingly obvious. Body armor saves lives! lol


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Good, if slanted, explanation of the politics of the time.

Yes, decent armor as proposed would have not only saved many lives but would have shortened the war as those men would still have been there and morale and confidence would have been higher.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:47 pm 
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How much does it cost?

It's an unpleasant notion for the vast majority of citizens, but a soldier's life has a dollar value.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm 
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I'm not certain you can make the claim that X number of lives would be saved. If both sides adopted body armor, the battles would have continued until the same number of people are dead. Even if the initial rate of casualties went down(until weapons caught up with armor, it is, obviously, an arms race between weapons & armor)


Think of it this way. We need to take X hill. There's 20 men up there. They wont surrender until they're down to 25% of their initial force. If I take them out in the first day, or it takes me 5 days, doesn't matter. I still had to take out 75% of their forces before they'd surrender or retreat.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:32 pm 
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I agree with Riov. Body armor can save a person's life in a conflict, but its harder to say if it will save lives in wars.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:15 pm 
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It could, because you are able to force the enemy to pay a cost of human life it deems unacceptably high with a lower cost in your own troops. Riov's statement assumes all things are equal, which they most certainly are not. If all things were equal, Pearl Harbor would have gotten nuked.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Except for the fact that Japan did not have the ability to build a nuclear weapon. We couldn't even continue nuking Japanese cities at a rate of 1 every 3 days after Nagasaki.

However, the basic point that the battle would have just continued until the same number of people were dead is still false. Ammunition and other supplies would still have been expended at the same rate, and there is no reason to think either side could have increased production still more to account for that.

Furthermore, while a great many lives may have been saved, those people would not all have escaped unscathed. Casualty =/= dead. While there would be fewer casualties overall, and fewer deaths, part of what happens with body armor is that many people that would have died end up maimed or wounded instead. They're still out of the fight, most likely, and thus a casualty, but the end-of-war death total would be lower (although the wounded total would be higher, most likely).

As to the weight question, and the availability of steel, both of those things would have to be considered. I don't know that steel availability would be a huge issue, but it could be nontrivial. Weight would be a bigger issue, especially in the muddy trench fighting of WWI. Heat, disease, and exhaustion were already bigger issues than today with primitive medicine and sanitation. Soldiers wearing metal armor would need to drink considerably more water; water is heavy and in WWI much supply was by horsecart; motor trucks were rare and rail can only get so close to the front lines. Yes, soldiers will carry a great deal of weight if ordered, but there's a limit. Weight creep is a very, very serious issue for infantry. Modern soldiers in Iraq wear 70 lbs or more of armor and gear.. but they go back to a base after a mission where they sleep in a bed, eat in a chow hall, or at least get a hot meal cooked to modern standards, and have other comforts that a WWI soldier living in a trench for months on end would simply not have to maintain his health.

Overall, the article is decent in my view, except for the last paragraph. The simple fact was that as firearms appeared they rendered medieval style metal body armor irrelevant, and thus it was discarded. The leaders of WWI were simply not prepared for the massive changes in warfare that technology had brought. They led on the basis of their experience, and their experience was, mostly, not equal to the task.

There was also the fact that WWI occurred at an awkward phase of development in technology. Artillery and machineguns had advanced tremendously in power, but tanks did not exist at the start of the war, and were primitive at best by the end. Air power was little better; it was of enormous use for recon, but could not carry a meaningful enough bombload nor drop it accurately enough to really affect ground fighting. These factors meant that infantry and cavalry, the mobile arms, were at extreme disadvantage against fixed positions.

Visions of dying gloriously for country can accept a bit of blame for casualties, and inept generalship can accept more, but the biggest factor in WWI casualties was the fact that it was WWI. The tactics and means to do differently simply did not yet exist.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Except for the fact that Japan did not have the ability to build a nuclear weapon.


You must have missed the part where he said "if all things were equal."


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:08 pm 
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No, I got that part just fine. Did you have anything to contribute, or just want to nitpick semantics.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:36 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Except for the fact that Japan did not have the ability to build a nuclear weapon.


You must have missed the part where he said "if all things were equal."


At the time of Pearl Harbor, the US didn't have the ability to build a nuke either, so I guess all things were equal?

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:23 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
No, I got that part just fine. Did you have anything to contribute, or just want to nitpick semantics.


It's not really semantics if it's [/i]the entire point of his post[/i].


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:27 am 
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Today soldiers can survive wounds that would have been fatal during WWI. With our armour, we can get all our limbs blown off and still live. Were millions killed from shrapnel? They used mustard gas and lots of shelling. I'm sure there were plenty of ways to die of exposure as well. Technology available at the time limits what they can do. It's easy to say something like, "if only we had vaccines in the Bronze Age, so many lives could have been saved." Well no ****. Too bad ancient aliens taught us everything but what we needed.

Perhaps I can make a living writing Seinfeld style musing about historical scenarios.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:41 am 
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Wwen wrote:
Technology available at the time limits what they can do.

Yeah, but the article argues that the technology was available at the time. In fact, the Army actually had prototype armor that would have worked just fine, but they didn't use it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:53 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Furthermore, while a great many lives may have been saved, those people would not all have escaped unscathed. Casualty =/= dead. While there would be fewer casualties overall, and fewer deaths, part of what happens with body armor is that many people that would have died end up maimed or wounded instead. They're still out of the fight, most likely, and thus a casualty, but the end-of-war death total would be lower (although the wounded total would be higher, most likely).


This is exactly what is happening now. PTSD is a much larger problem today because far more of our soldiers are making it back "alive" from war. I say this only from the point of discussion, but there is an argument to be made that we've cursed those soldiers far worse than if they would have died in combat.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:27 am 
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Since clearly we have a few people in the thread who don't understand what "all things being equal" means.

If all things were equal, Japan would have had nuclear weapons to deploy on U.S. cities. Since the only actual states Japan managed to attack were Hawaii and Alaska, and their Alaskan forays were in mostly limited to vast stretches of frozen wasteland, that leaves Pearl Harbor as the target for the theoretical nuclear weapon.

In attempting to provide rebuttals, all you guys are doing is reinforcing that all things were not equal. The United States had a technological superiority over the Japanese, which is clearly visible in how that conflict shook itself out.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:40 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
the only actual states Japan managed to attack were Hawaii and Alaska, and their Alaskan forays were in mostly limited to vast stretches of frozen wasteland, that leaves Pearl Harbor as the target for the theoretical nuclear weapon.



Not quite true, though its an often repeated statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on ... rld_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Ellwood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardmen ... rt_Stevens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Air_Raids

of course none of these attacks was in any way particularly significant (6, possibly 7 total deaths, with some havoc caused with invasion scares)


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:39 am 
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Where we are headed with this conversation, probably after a few more track changes, is the question of drones. We have them and are able to get them where we want them. We can arm them with some very effective firepower, but they tend to take out civilians as well. They definitely save the lives of American soldiers who would be in serious danger trying to put
Boots on the ground for the same missions. Is it ethical for us to use them since the other side can't, well at least these guys.

War is not a moral and ethical debate. It is kill the other guys before they kill yours. It is expending your resources in a manner that destroys their resources more effectively than they can do to you. Yes, the use of drones is questionable for many reasons.

Is using them good and right? No, probably not. Going back to WWI for a moment we used a few shotguns as trench sweepers. The German command objected strenuously to these ungentlemanly weapons, objecting to their indiscriminate killing ability. These were the same guys using mustard gas. We shipped over thousands of those impolite shotguns and they changed and effectively ended trench warfare because the trenches became even less safe than before.

Drones have been a game changer in the War on Terror because they are effective and indiscriminate. If you are where the target is, you will probably die too. If your local enemy is a snitch to the Americans you may have your wedding blown up. We have not used good intelligence at all times. In war no one really does.

Yet, probably hundreds, maybe thousands, of American soldiers were not sacrificed to achieve the good targets we've hit. We are able to hit discriminately than with traditional air strikes. The enemy does not have an effective counter to them. They are an effective if expensive weapon. The objections to them are the same as to the shotguns. They work and the enemy doesn't have an effective counter. The lack of body armor in WWI sacrificed a lot of American Soldiers to a lousy gentleman's code.

I'm for making it so that fighting the USA should be considered a futile suicidal move. Yes use the drones, use whatever it takes to make it a short victory rather than along drawn out stalemate. Better drones than Nukes. We are not playing polo, we are fighting a war and killing the enemy when and where we can. If it feels like we are letting our soldiers survive at the cost of theirs, that is the point of going to war isn't it?

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
No, I got that part just fine. Did you have anything to contribute, or just want to nitpick semantics.[/quotl
It's not really semantics if it's [/i]the entire point of his post[/i].

Except that it isnt the entire point unless "all things are equal" means "we assign arbitrary capabilities to the involved nations for no apparent reason." The point was good; I spent quite some tome expanding on it. Th example sucked. I poonted that out and moved on.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:56 pm 
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It's called a hypothetical situation. A situation in which both the USA and Japan have identical motives, resources and abilities.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Since clearly we have a few people in the thread who don't understand what "all things being equal" means.

If all things were equal, Japan would have had nuclear weapons to deploy on U.S. cities. Since the only actual states Japan managed to attack were Hawaii and Alaska, and their Alaskan forays were in mostly limited to vast stretches of frozen wasteland, that leaves Pearl Harbor as the target for the theoretical nuclear weapon.

In attempting to provide rebuttals, all you guys are doing is reinforcing that all things were not equal. The United States had a technological superiority over the Japanese, which is clearly visible in how that conflict shook itself out.


That isnt what "all things equal" means at all. You can quit lecturing now, since all you're doing is derailing the thread and making it clear you're just searching for an excuse to pretend you can talk down to everyone else. At the time of pearl harbor, neither side could use nukes or bomb each other's cities except through attacks on outlying places like Hawaii and Alaska, and stunts like the Doolittle raid. All things equal does not mean importing capabilities from the future.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
It's called a hypothetical situation. A situation in which both the USA and Japan have identical motives, resources and abilities.


One which makes no sense. We may as well say "all things being equal, both sides would have Imperial Star Destroyers." It would make far more sense to talk about both sides having equal numbers of BBs and CVs, which actually were available in December 1941

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Note that Coro never said the Pearl Harbor attacks in 1941 would have been replaced by an atomic bomb. All things being equal, they may have attacked it again in 1945. That's the fun of hypothetical situations.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Furthermore, while a great many lives may have been saved, those people would not all have escaped unscathed. Casualty =/= dead. While there would be fewer casualties overall, and fewer deaths, part of what happens with body armor is that many people that would have died end up maimed or wounded instead. They're still out of the fight, most likely, and thus a casualty, but the end-of-war death total would be lower (although the wounded total would be higher, most likely).


This is exactly what is happening now. PTSD is a much larger problem today because far more of our soldiers are making it back "alive" from war. I say this only from the point of discussion, but there is an argument to be made that we've cursed those soldiers far worse than if they would have died in combat.


PTSD is more noticeable today because we recognize it for what it is. In WWII, at some points we were taking psychological casualties faster than we were inducting new troops.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
PTSD is more noticeable today because we recognize it for what it is. In WWII, at some points we were taking psychological casualties faster than we were inducting new troops.



WW2? "Battle Fatigue."



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