The Glade 4.0

Fascinating combination of agreement with a core premise paired with Reductio ad Absurdum.



Sure, I'm declaring my correctness by fiat. But so are you. If you want to approach this from a "cite and report" perspective, burden of evidence is on you, and linking sources is insufficient over citation of facts.

Given you've not had that amount of thoroughness, you shouldn't be requesting additional rigor from me.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

And you, of course, realize that Reductio ad Absurdum is not a fallacy, but a legitimate logical test. There is no way to disprove the existence of any of those things. From a logical perspective, they are all equal. And in fact, I don't even see it as reducing it to its most absurd elements...I don't see any substantive difference between belief in God and belief in Faeries, or the FSM.



I cannot repeat all the points in the same level of detail that are in the sources I have read or watched. I cited the conclusions, and linked some of the sources. If you don't want to read or watch them, it's up to you, but you don't have any ground to stand on then in criticizing the conclusions. I don't have to prove their conclusions for them. They've done a good enough job of it themselves.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Sure. It's one thing to be convinced. It's a complete failure, however, to use the scientific arguments as the basis for your extrapolation into areas they did not deal with, and then credit the "brilliant minds" with your opinion. Like using Darwin's theory of evolution as a means to claim God does not exist. He did not make that claim.

Nobody here has made that claim. Even Dawkins doesn't make that claim.

The claim is there is absolutely no empirical evidence that God exists. Likewise, there is no evidence that a creator being does not exist. The evidence for and against God is equal to the evidence for and against pixies, or the flying spaghetti monster. Your god is worth the same attention as every other fantastical, unfalsifiable claim ever made by any human being.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

This is the core concept that the faithful seem incapable of understanding.

I wonder if part of the issue is how both sides use the word "believe." When the doubtful say the word "believe" it's being used like "suspect". For example, "I believe there is no god" is basically the same as, "I suspect there is no god." When the faithful say the word "believe" it's being used like "know". For example, "I believe there is a god" is basically the same as, "I know there is a god."

I have no problem with people who say "Faith is believing without evidence. I chose to have faith."

Faith is a choice.


I have SERIOUS Problems with people who try to bastardize, cannibalize, abuse and misuse science to try to 'justify' their faith.

The problem comes in that as human beings we're innately scientific. People have faith. And they have science. And the two tell us vastly different things about the universe.

Science produces measurable results that faith cannot duplicate.
Faith does not provide results that science cannot duplicate.
I therefor choose science. But that is MY choice.

The major problem for me comes when someone sees I don't have their faith, and they try claim to use my beliefs to convert me to theirs.

I don't think this doesn't say what you don't want it to say.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Faith's results can be duplicated by science.

happy?

Strangely, no. Faith's results are the supernatural and fantastical and unverifiable claims. Science can't even consider faith's results, so this sentence makes no sense to me. Explain.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I didn't state that faith's CLAIMS can be duplicated by science, only that their measurable results can be.

Those are not faith's results. When I talk about results, I am referring to the measurable increases in happiness, healing rates and decreased stress levels, etc. Science does confirm that these are indeed factual. It also doesn't matter which faith you profess, simply that you have faith.

I would question that claim, lacking the data or methodology, or source.

In any event, I would say those are not "results", even if true. They are, at best, "side effects."

The goal of religion and science is the same: to explain the universe we live in. Science is a search for knowledge and fact. Religion replaces that search with doctrine wrapped in a bow, but it fills the same gap. The point here is that the result of science and religion is the knowledge they provide.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I'll have to find links to the actual research, but much of the initial work in the field of positive psych was done by Martin Seligman.

Results are results, side effects is just a term for an unintended or undesired result.

It was an easy example. You are doing this, for example, with the above statement. I've never seen a scientist make this claim, and yet you are "basing your opinion" on their arguments. Your opinion is not their opinion. You are taking their arguments and extrapolating them, making new opinions. Like you did with your assumption that people lose faith as they work in the field of science, based on a poll that suggested older scientists had less faith.

No, you are completely wrong. Some people "know", some people "believe". That is the entire concept of faith.

Actually, I'm not. I am simply restating their arguments. (See the links provided.)




No, I stated a statistical fact first...



In the statistics provided, the older the group of scientists, the less professed belief there was. That means that the higher the age and experience level, the less professed faith there is. I gave no factual claim of a stated reason for the corellation. I only stated the corellation. Then, I posited a possible reason...




This is an observational hypothesis that fits the observed facts, but it's not the only possibility, and isn't framed as such.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Two words -

"Peak oil"

Thing is, Trimble, so often "* You're not only wrong. You're wrong at the top of your voice".

*BDaBR

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In time, this too shall pass.

Uh, huh?

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █