The Glade 4.0

Any thoughts on this matter? This is what I've written to my friend. Sorry but I am too lazy to make a proper write up.

The point I was trying to make in the monkey thread is that we could observe the monkey's behavior, but not attribute its motives to altruism or its own self interest.

The same can be applied to a human being. I can't say if Joe gives to charity because he believes it is selfless and right or because he wants people to think well of him. His actions may give me an inkling one way or the other (does he do it grudgingly, with great pretense, or proudly?), but I cannot be the final arbiter.

Does genuine selfless exist? I would believe so. I have received things from people (including getting to go to Africa on the backs of multiple, anonymous donors) that I believe are the results of genuine selflessness. It is a selflessness that flows from faith in God, but still selflessness all the same. Again I can't proove it, but all evidence seems to lead that it was.

I often have to examine my own actions, and why I do things that some that others may consider charitable.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

I find myself doing charitable things more often than I used to in the past, although ultimately it is to elevate my position in life.

edit:

I could see this changing in my old age, but I want to be at a high up position in society before I am truly charitable.

Lots of people do. I don't refute that, but I reject the notion that everyone does all the time.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

You've got to give action to get action.

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I would say usually this is true.

Personally, I don't believe in truly selfless acts.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I think people care about the well-being of themselves, to a percent degree, and also the well-being of others. Unless you have completely lost your sense of reality.

Maybe it's like 70%/30%.

People care about others directly proportionally to how caring about others makes them feel about themselves in regard to their individual world view and personal morality.

We all do the things that make us feel good, and those things vary greatly from individual to individual.

There are no selfless acts, we're all hedonists.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

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In time, this too shall pass.

Considering selflessnes is constantly being bred out of the population, and selfishness constantly procreating, I'd say evolution does not support the selfless well...

Well, I don't agree with the hedonism language, but otherwise "yes" to this post.


Basically we're driven by our genes, which are extremely selfish little things. And that, I think, is the uniqueness of the human creature. Because we are sapient, we can understand these things and choose to behave in ways contrary to our genes (charitible acts and works, building social safety nets, etc.).

That's fascinating to me. The idea that our real spiritual struggle is against our own inner genetic nature.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Saying people do what makes them feel good is a meaningless tautology that can be applied to any act, including sacrificing one's self for "what is right".

As was pointed out above, this viewpoint renders the word "selfless" obsolete, and refuses separation between sacrificial acts and self-betterment acts. It confuses the conversation and does not provide benefit to the discussion.

It is better to not go down the road of "there are no selfless acts" and simply focus on the reason for the act - helping others or helping oneself. Yes, if helping others makes you feel good about yourself, so what?

Indeed. "selfless" versus "selfish" should focus on the tangible. Claiming that acts which materially better others at the expense of one's self are still "selfish" because they make someone feel good simply try to debate the concept of selflessness out of existence. It's just a way to justify cynicism.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

In most instances, helping others is in essence helping yourself.

There are plenty of examples where by helping the community, you raise your own worth, both in wealth and in reputation.