The Glade 4.0

You picked a really bad comparative, because sandbox games are not RPGs in any real sense, especially not the Elder Scrolls series. Narrative content matters in an RPG; anything in which the narrative content is, at best, ancillary to the product's viability is not an RPG. That definitely includes Skyrim, which I probably have more time in avoiding narrative than you. It's a great 3.5 Edition Rogue Simulator.

That said, there's no excuse for watering things down in the case of TOR; there's no excuse for overly scripted, non-interactive cinematic dialogues in ME. Knights of the Old Republic was kind of on rails; the meta-narrative had a definite direction. There's even nominal nods to player choice; more nods to player choice in actual outcome than Mass Effect allows. Knights of the Old Republic, however, has good pacing; the hub areas are solid and filled with local content and narrative; the side quests are accomplished while you go through the main narrative content. SWTOR doesn't do that nearly as well, but MMO. Dragon Age doesn't really cover that well at all. Mass Effect's side quests (first one, sorry didn't play 2, won't play anything more than MP on 3) were abysmal in their sequencing and actually slowed the game down way too much during the Citadel portions, for instance.

These are all major flaws, particularly when writing is the big gimmick, the primary draw for their titles. Mechanical features that harm the narrative experience are net negatives. Placing it completely on rails harms the narrative experience, when choices are ostensibly supposed to matter.

Using the same interactivity structure and gameplay progression for every game, ever? Bad design.

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Actually, it most certainly does deliver. All those games give me exactly what I was looking for when I picked them up. Mass Effect feels epic right from the very first scene in ME1 with Joker and Kaiden joking on the bridge of the Normandy, and never lets up for at least 2 games. (I can't say anything about ME3 yet...haven't played it.) The games are not without their flaws, but that epic feeling is there throughout. They all give me exactly what I want. In that respect, they've actually improved on KOTOR, though they're certainly derivative of it.

SWTOR? Not-so-much. Oh, it's the closest anyone has gotten in an MMO yet, but it's still not the experience those other games are.

My biggest complaint about Bioware would be their continued snubbing of gay & lesbian relationships in the romantic subplots of their stories. (EDIT) With the notable exceptions of Jade Empire and Dragon Age, they don't really exist. You can perhaps count the potential pseudo-lesbian romance of Liara T'soni in ME1, but not really - Asari have no males or females. Juhani in KotOR also doesn't count, it's understated and under the radar, given half the attention as the possible romance with Bastila or Carth. People complain every time, Bioware then forgets again with the next game. SWTOR is the worst in this regard.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Huh? Like half of the available romances in both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age II were same-sex available.

yeah, i totally forgot dragon age while making that post. I edited while you were composing.

Generally, Mass Effect 1&2 and all their Star Wars titles are the issue here. Bastila, Ashley, Miranda, Tali'zorah, and all romanceable female companions in SWTOR really irritate me.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Another nice opinion. Mine is very different.

I have nine level 55's now, and have done every class story (mostly light side, with one dark side Assassin), and every flashpoint. I've also completed the Makeb planet story (including SGR) on both Empire and Republic side, including all of the Heroics. I'm still working on finishing the Macrobinoculars and Seeker Droid mission arcs, as I've not been able to pin down the guildmates long enough to get those done.

Help me understand this statement:


Why do having a great single player story and being a good MMO have to be mutually exlusive? Did you ever try to even group for a Heroic 2 or Heroic 4? Or any of the Flashpoints? My first time through the Maelstrom Prison flashpoint was one of the most epic gaming experiences I've ever had. I was absolutely stunned by it.

I'm neither of a lover or hater of EA or Bioware, but I do greatly enjoy my time in SW:ToR, and it is my ideal MMO. Is it perfect? nope. There are flaws in the game design, and bugs galore, but overall, it fits my ideal multiplayer game perfectly. It fully supports my casual game play style, and is friendly to a small group of core players. I can log in and have lots of interesting things to do solo, places to explore, etc... On the scheduled nights when the guildmates are on, we do flashpoints, either in story mode on alts, or in hard mode on the higher level characters. I've been playing since March of last year, and still find myself rushing to get home and get chores done so I can log in and play. No game has done this for me since EQ1.

It's single greatest flaw is that it didn't live up to the pre-launch hype.

Also, don't forget about ME3 and it's gay beefcake in the hangar.

Midgen: The ability to log on, click a button, run a flashpoint in 20 minutes, and disconnect again is quite compelling.



I've said a few times i haven't played ME3 yet.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Agreed. It's a very solid game, though one I lost interest in fairly quickly (mainly because I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, I think).

I don't think there's been a single MMORPG that ever has, and only who says differently is showing his or her bias.

Hell, it's tough to find even regular single-player games that hit that mark.

Ah, I didn't know if you'd ever gotten over the ending. Oh well, can include ME3 in the list regardless.

The fastest I've ever completed *any* flashpoint is running with four level 55's on Mumble jamming the spacebar and skipping everything except the bosses in Taral V [Hardmode] (for a quick weekly comms run). That took about 25 minutes.

If you are doing the bonus missions and enjoying the conversations, expect it to take at least an hour+. Much longer if you don't know the boss mechanics.

Are you honestly trying to say that Skyrim is not a RPG? And you're doing so with the straightest of straight faces?

Please grab yon break over there and give it to me.

I will accept it is not the same type of RPG as others. And I'd easily agree that Skyrim isn't in the same category as games like KOTOR. But to flatly say that it isn't a RPG is ludicrous. Maybe you personally believe that but the rest of the world doesn't take your personal thoughts as law. If you feel strongly otherwise, as they say in school, "please show your work and cite your references."

Oh, and you'd be surprised at the hundreds of hours I've logged not doing the main questline in Skyrim.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

I guess I always prefer to write the story in my head, if I wanted a video game that played like a movie I could see how I would have a problem though.

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The Elder Scrolls games ceased to be roleplaying games when the narrative content became secondary to almost everything else. Medieval action simulation? World building and tech demo exercise for Bethesda? There are more roleplaying elements in Dishonored than Oblivion and Skyrim put together; Dishonored isn't an RPG. Tomb Raider has more RPG elements than Skyrim in fact. But, eh, I'm just a dinosaur, apparently.

And I doubt you have more time avoiding the narrative content in Skyrim than I do, seeing as how I've taken to writing mods to prevent narrative content from triggering at all, it's that bad.

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The world defines RPGs differently than you. You would be hard pressed to find any definition or description of that game from multiple sources without the words "role" and "playing" side by side.

As I said, there are many subset categories of RPG and I am more than willing to agree that Skyrim isn't in the same category as many others. I just think one can't flatly state as if it were a fact that Skyrim is not an RPG. Not without the words "In my personal opinion" beforehand.

In tabletop gaming, which I think many would agree is one of the pinnacles of playing a role playing game, I've allowed the players to completely go off onto tangents to the main storyline I've created and allowed them to end up creating a story completely separate and different than what I originally planned (so much so that I scrapped that storyline, because what they were building was better). I've also placed players on rails with the illusion of free agency, which is what those players had more fun with (some players don't like too much freedom). I'd say both games were no less an RPG to anyone involved. They were playing their roles. They were becoming more powerful.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

Again, all roleplaying games rely on their narrative content to drive the action, this includes tabletop games. If the narrative content has no impact on the game, it's not an RPG. The narrative content in Skyrim is meaningless filler.

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Numbuk, when players ignore the storyline you devised and go off on a tangent, you're still providing story for that tangent -- you introduce new hooks, new antagonists with plans and agendas, and new conflicts for them to explore.

When Khross goes around and uses Skyrim as his backstabbing simulator, there's zero story to support it. He's just going on a silent sociopathic serial killing spree with nobody knowing or caring.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Exactly. I have yet to finish the primary narrative component of the game, primarily because it's almost an intentional impediment to enjoying the game.

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It sound more like you're trying to make the argument that the game is not a RPG because you chose not to play it as such. You didn't like the various options the game presents you, and chose to play the game in another fashion. This doesn't mean the original intent of the game was not an RPG (however it was executed is another mater entirely).

The fact is you have a character, the player directs that character and makes choices-- they take on a role. The Character progresses and develops along the lines the player chooses. . It is, a role playing game.

You're rewriting the definition of a RPG away from the commonly accepted definition.

Then "role-playing" is a valueless qualifier, since you just described every video game ever, including Pong.

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The paddle in the latter parts of the game pong is no different then it is in the beginning--it does not, in any sense, progress. (Score is not a quality of the paddle). In some games there is some quantitative difference in the speed of the sprite/character but little else, but again, the qualities of the player's agent in-game do not change.

However in a RPG the CHARACTER progresses and gains both quantitative (HP, firepower, etc) and qualitative changes (new abilities, weapons, etc) Furthermore the character (and by extension, the player) gains information which inform the players choices and the character's conclusions/strategies in the later game.

You're not helping your case: you're still describing every video game ever made; in fact, you're also describing a whole lot of procedural board games as well. Also, the paddle is the not the character: the paddle is a representation of the character's actions -- a Tennis Player.

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now you're just trolling.

TheRiov:

I'm not trolling at all. You've yet to isolate role-playing game as a distinct group among the set of video games. Character progression isn't the defining quality. You wouldn't consider League of Legends an RPG. I know you wouldn't consider ME3's Multiplayer (in isolation) an RPG. You don't consider Star Craft an RPG. Yet, all of those games meet every characteristic you've placed in this thread.

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I've not played LoL, so I'm afraid I can't comment on that one. ME3's multiplayer, while it does contain SOME aspects of a RPG in that characters level up & gain abilities there is no ongoing information/story that informs the decisions the player makes. (Though bioware made attempts to do so during the first year of the game's release with added information & changing enemy strategies & capabilites for weekly events)

I did not play SC, though I did play SCII. There are RPG aspects of SCII as well, but the play style is obviously a RTS, and the limiting element is player choice and plot. There are no real plot choices the player makes (beyond which planet to go to first, which tactical abilities to select) (Ok, Tosh vs Nova and saving Dr Ariel whats-her-name)

The fact of the matter is those, that no matter the player choices the individual of Kerrigan or Jim Raynor don't change)


Again, the character develops and changes, and the character must be under the nominal control of the player, and the character must develop, and through the players choices become something they were not before.

Kerrigan & Raynor fail this test. Faceless soldiers in the Reaper war fail this test. Whatever character you play in Skyrim passes it.

There's plenty of ongoing information that informs the decisions the player makes -- do I shoot this guy right in front of me or do I run across the map to chase the priority target or click the Orbital Relay or ...

Thank you for conceding my point: Skyrim isn't an RPG because the narrative content is immaterial.

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