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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:48 pm 
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If people really are acting that way, telling the enforcement officers to get new jobs, etc., then yes I hope the city wins the suit. These people are just doing their jobs, if you really want the city to change anything, take it to the higher-ups, not the grunts.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Fortunately, it's all on video tape.

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Cleaveland said he speaks to the officers less than 90 percent of the time, and when he does, he is not harassing or intimidating.

He said the Robin Hooders try to be about 20 feet ahead of the officer, but the officers cross the street, zigzag, or hide behind buildings if they see a Robin Hooder.


"If they see us in front of them, they will try to alter their path," Cleaveland said.

The two said the video recordings of their "Robin Hooding" will vindicate them in court.


(I suspect "he speaks to them less than 90 percent of the time" is meant to say "more than 90% of the time he doesn't speak with them at all.)

I am highly offended by law that exists only to make revenue for government by fining those who commit infractions against it.

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Last edited by Talya on Wed May 15, 2013 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
If people really are acting that way, telling the enforcement officers to get new jobs, etc., then yes I hope the city wins the suit. These people are just doing their jobs, if you really want the city to change anything, take it to the higher-ups, not the grunts.


Again, 1st Amendment should trump this worker's feelings.

You work in a public venue, on public streets, and are effectively a tax collector. You think the public should not only NOT dislike you, but if they do not be allowed to tell you so?

I can understand if they put a time and place type restriction into effect, such as saying the hecklers have to stand back 50 feet or something, but otherwise, get over it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:54 pm 
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1st amendment is based on the right to make your opinions known. It should not be a tool to abuse people. A law enforcement officer in the pursuit of their legal duties is not a public figure.

I don't have a problem with their goal or their methods EXCEPT the part about engaging the people doing their job.


also... WTH has 8 hours a day to spend time feeding meters?


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:58 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
1st amendment is based on the right to make your opinions known. It should not be a tool to abuse people. A law enforcement officer in the pursuit of their legal duties is not a public figure.


1) Meter maids are not law enforcement officers. (at least not in Ohio, Georgia, and the United Kingdom, the only places of which I've heard or personally dealt with them)

2) Even if they were an LEO; they are indeed a public figure. That's why they can be filmed, insulted, or whatever you.

3) No abuse is occurring unless the individuals in question are menacing which has a specific definition in any given state.



Executioners got heckled back in the day. They just bought a hood.


1st Amendment exists to protect speech, including vile speech. Just because you wouldn't want to work in these conditions (presuming the parking attendant is actually being "harassed") does not mean others would not. Additionally, just because you don't think that THEY should have to work in that environment doesn't mean others' rights should be curtailed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Talya wrote:
I am highly offended by law that exists only to make revenue for government by fining those who commit infractions against it.


Parking meters are only considered legal when used in context of parking regulation and not for revenue purposes, so you're highly offended by a situation that is non-existent.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:59 pm 
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So, there's all sorts of noise on that issue, but ...

Keene should thank them for eliminating the need for entire paid position, terminate one of their parking cops, repurpose the other two, and bank $40,000 a year that these idiots are saving the city.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Talya wrote:
I am highly offended by law that exists only to make revenue for government by fining those who commit infractions against it.
Parking meters are only considered legal when used in context of parking regulation and not for revenue purposes, so you're highly offended by a situation that is non-existent.
I can bet you money the problem here isn't harassment at all, but the near $20,000 they cost the City of Keene last year. They paid enough parking meters (some 4,000 at $5.00 a fine) to short circuit $20,000 in parking tickets. That's the better part of that parking attendant's salary (and probably that parking attendant's cost of employment).

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Parking on any given block is a limited resource, so we have to find a way to share it properly. Time limits, either by sign or meter is probably the only real way to do it. If anyone has a better idea I'd love to hear it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Parking on any given block is a limited resource, so we have to find a way to share it properly. Time limits, either by sign or meter is probably the only real way to do it. If anyone has a better idea I'd love to hear it.


I don't know that it's a better idea, but you could disallow street parking entirely. Then private enterprise would either have to create their own for each business, or more private, paid parking lots/garages would pop up.

Edit: You'd save a ton in municipal expenditures. This would allow lower tax rates and for only those using parking to pay (the private lot owner) rather than everybody paying regardless of usage.

Second edit: You may also increase throughput on city streets, and not insignificant tertiary benefit.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:15 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Edit: You'd save a ton in municipal expenditures. This would allow lower tax rates and for only those using parking to pay (the private lot owner) rather than everybody paying regardless of usage.

Second edit: You may also increase throughput on city streets, and not insignificant tertiary benefit.
You forgot the corollary to saving a ton in municipal expenditures: you create newer, ongoing sources of continuous property tax revenue and business licensing revenue.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:17 pm 
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That's not feasible everywhere (limited space), but not a terrible idea in some places. Whenever I try to go someplace where parking is going to be an issue, I try to ask them if they have contractor parking so I don't have to deal with on street time limits and meters. It's also harder for me because I don't have marked vehicle. I've seen parking enforcement ignore a non-bus school vehicle and ticket my unmarked sedan for being in a school bus only zone.

If it were just me, I'm perfectly willing to walk, but I do have boxes to carry sometimes quite large ones. Perhaps I should invest in a folding cart.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Wed May 15, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:19 pm 
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In a relatively small downtown area of San Diego, you could probably replace all of the metered parking with one, maybe two parking structures spaced out for easier walking. Would the city revenue from the two garages outweigh the revenue from parking meters and fines? It's an interesting notion.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
In a relatively small downtown area of San Diego, you could probably replace all of the metered parking with one, maybe two parking structures spaced out for easier walking. Would the city revenue from the two garages outweigh the revenue from parking meters and fines? It's an interesting notion.
That's categorically, "Yes," Lenas. You could have the structures municipally owned and come out ahead, ESPECIALLY in California.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
In a relatively small downtown area of San Diego, you could probably replace all of the metered parking with one, maybe two parking structures spaced out for easier walking. Would the city revenue from the two garages outweigh the revenue from parking meters and fines? It's an interesting notion.


Can't just look at revenue, gotta look at expense too.

If they gross $50k in fines but spend $45k in salary and benefits for the tax collector/parking attendant, they only have to make up $5k from the hypothetical garages.

Additiona factors: parking space maintenance goes away, fewer pension obligations, smaller HR and management teams, etc. etc. Cascading benefits can go a long way.

Downside? Less convenience for parking, less space available for non-parking business interests.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:49 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
2) Even if they were an LEO; they are indeed a public figure. That's why they can be filmed, insulted, or whatever you.


You can't follow anyone around and repeatedly insult them. It's called diorderly conduct.

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3) No abuse is occurring unless the individuals in question are menacing which has a specific definition in any given state.


Following someone around can indeed be construed as menacing, depending on the exact facts. Touching someone definitely is, and can be assault, as can almost touching someone. The little kid games of pretending to hit someone and then "Whiffing" at the last second are not something the law permits. Contrary to the popular saying, your right to swing you arm does not end at my nose, it ends at the point you swing your arm in a manner that forces me to think my nose is about to be hit.

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Executioners got heckled back in the day. They just bought a hood.


So? We aren't living back in the day.

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1st Amendment exists to protect speech, including vile speech. Just because you wouldn't want to work in these conditions (presuming the parking attendant is actually being "harassed") does not mean others would not. Additionally, just because you don't think that THEY should have to work in that environment doesn't mean others' rights should be curtailed.


The right to free speech does not mean the right to say anything you want any time you want, and most definitely does not include the right to follow individuals around and harass them. It exists to protect the free expression of ideas generally, not to permit their expression at any time and place and any manner whatsoever. "Make no law restricting freedom of speech" does not include speech that isn't free speech in the first place; the classic example is the "fire in a crowded building one".

All that said, Khross is right. They'd save money on the manpower side getting rid of one parking enforcer, and repurposing the other two. The only question is, do the parking fees defray maintenance costs for the parking areas? Probably so. They aren't there just "for revenue".

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
You can't follow anyone around and repeatedly insult them. It's called diorderly conduct.
Says someone who has never been to a Cleveland Indians game ...

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:16 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
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According to the suit, the residents "regularly, repeatedly and intentionally taunted, interfered with, harassed, and intimidated" the officers starting last December, "surrounding, touching or nearly touching, and otherwise taunting and harassing" the officers.


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In the filing, parking enforcement officer Linda Desruisseaux said, "Besides following me, crowding around me, making video recordings of my activities, and placing coins in expired meters to prevent me from writing tickets, these individuals repeatedly taunt and harass me, asking why I am stealing peoples' money and telling me to get another job ... In particular, Graham Colson likes to taunt me by saying, 'Linda, guess what you're not going to do today - write tickets.' ... The taunting and harassment tends to get worse when there is a group, as they try to one-up each other at my expense."


Hostile work environment?

Anyone else hear Manning chanting, "cut that meat!" In their head?

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
You can't follow anyone around and repeatedly insult them. It's called diorderly conduct.
Says someone who has never been to a Cleveland Indians game ...

IF the reports are true, then it's the meter maids that are following the robin hoods. Can't hardly get to the meter first by following...

More seriously though, the behavior of some official somewhere would have had to have been pretty onerous to have instigated the behavior of the folks feeding the meters. I'd be inclined to be sympathetic. I'm good with a bit of civil disobedience as long as nothing is damaged and nobody's hurt.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
You can't follow anyone around and repeatedly insult them. It's called diorderly conduct.
Says someone who has never been to a Cleveland Indians game ...

IF the reports are true, then it's the meter maids that are following the robin hoods. Can't hardly get to the meter first by following...

More seriously though, the behavior of some official somewhere would have had to have been pretty onerous to have instigated the behavior of the folks feeding the meters. I'd be inclined to be sympathetic. I'm good with a bit of civil disobedience as long as nothing is damaged and nobody's hurt.


Really? I mean, I agree, but I didn't expect you to say something like that.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:52 am 
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http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case-la ... of-seizure

Reversal of Tyranny?

They should have told Ohio.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/ ... 3m-lawsuit

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:03 am 
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United States v. Black has been on my watchlist for a white, Fys; and the decision is not as positive as it seems. The guilty was forced by judicial malfeasance: the original Court denied his motion to suppress what the 4th Circuit later ruled was illegally obtained evidence. The resultant conviction was not reversed; the sentence was vacated. That said, the situation is problematic for a variety of reasons. It highlights the eroding standards for police action in this nation. The fallout of Brady and subsequent government pushes to very prominently propagandize and marginalize firearm ownership led to a situation wherein carrying a firearm was treated as a blanket statement of reasonable suspicion. Diamondeye's going to scream up and down that I'm talking out of my *** about that, but you can read the 4th Circuit decision and find out that the Judges ruled against exactly that standard.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:14 am 
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Müs wrote:
http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case-law-updates/784-fourth-circuit-finds-that-carrying-a-firearm-in-an-open-carry-state-does-not-create-reasonable-suspicion-and-provides-thorough-analysis-of-the-free-to-leave-standard-of-seizure

Reversal of Tyranny?


I think reversals are appropriate for this thread as well.

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That's like 20 minutes from my house, and I've shopped at that Speedway.


This isn't the first open carry or CCW carry problem that's arisen in Ohio. Apparently our cops just can't figure out that "guns are allowed, m'kay?"

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:49 am 
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Well, we had some tyranny reversal today.

How about some localized tyranny?

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/pu ... id=9669704


Quote:
Mayor Emanuel's FOIA policy: Don't ask because we won't tell

As a Chicago parent discovered, city officials can't hand over records if they've already destroyed them.
By Ben Joravsky@joravben


Mayor Rahm Emanuel is undermining the state Freedom of Information Act; Attorney General Lisa Madigan is charged with enforcing it.

Rich Hein/Sun-Times Media



As we approach the midpoint of Mayor Emanuel's first term, I think I've discovered one of his greatest legacies to Chicago, right up there with dismantling public education and making Mayor Daley's god-awful parking meter deal even worse.

The mayor is also undermining the Freedom of Information Act, so that it's next to impossible for ordinary citizens to secure information showing how the government reaches decisions that affect their lives. The mayor and other officials are then free to do pretty much anything they want without fear of scrutiny.

Getting around the FOIA isn't as easy as it looks. The law requires that public officials share records generated by public bodies. In fact, transparency is one of those good-government principles that almost all elected officials feel compelled to endorse, even if it's the last thing they actually want to do.

In his case, Mayor Emanuel boasts of running "the most open, accountable, and transparent government Chicago has ever seen."

Meanwhile he's invented one of the great FOIA dodges of all time: I'd give you the stuff you want, but we threw it out.

That's what has emerged from the twists and turns of a FOIA request made in February 2012 by a north-side public school parent named Glenn Krell.

As you may recall from the first time I wrote about his case, Krell sought records from the Chicago Public Schools related to Mayor Emanuel's longer-school-day mandate.

As you undoubtedly know, the mayor extended the class time in public schools by about an hour without offering enough resources to help use the time effectively. Many schools were then forced to fill it with study halls, where teachers are supposed to provide one-on-one tutoring to 30-some kids. It works out to a couple minutes of tutoring apiece. Great program, Mr. Mayor.

Krell figured CPS had done research on the longer school day because, like every parent in the system, he'd received a letter from Jean-Claude Brizard, then the CEO, claiming that "our elementary school students are receiving 22 percent less instruction time than their peers across the country." So he sent CPS a FOIA request asking for "the reports, statistics, comprehensive city-by-city analysis and other documents that back up the statement by Mr. Brizard."

CPS responded that "the district does not maintain any documents responsive to your request."

Krell appealed to Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office because that's what the law says you should do if you think you're getting stonewalled on a FOIA request.

The longer-school-day records weren't all he requested from CPS. Krell also sought information regarding "selective enrollment tiers."

This has to do with CPS's effort to rank every neighborhood by socioeconomic factors in order to guarantee diversity in limited-enrollment high schools like North Side and Payton. The purpose is to make sure kids from low-income neighborhoods get a shot at admission to the high-performing schools.

For the last year or so, many parents have complained that the formula seems arbitrary and unfair. So Krell sent a FOIA seeking "reports and analyses used to formulate the selective enrollment tiers."

He knew CPS had lots of information on this matter because he'd read about it in the Tribune. In that article, CPS officials boasted about how they'd left no stone unturned in their effort to make the selection process as fair and objective as possible. They said the process considers data such as home-ownership rates in the students' census tracts and the share of homes where English isn't the primary language.

But as with the longer-day FOIA, CPS responded that "the documents that Mr. Krell has requested are not mandated for retention."

Which is not the same thing as saying they never existed. It just means that CPS is claiming they're not required to keep the stuff. Krell stressed that point in his appeal.

Eventually, lawyers for the attorney general's office got around to pressing CPS officials. As one of the attorneys wrote in a report on the matter: "Specifically, we asked that CPS clarify whether or not the requested documents had ever existed or had once existed but were destroyed."

Excellent questions! And the response?

"CPS responded [by] stating that the records requested by Mr. Krell 'have never been maintained by [CPS] and do not exist.'"

As a result, the attorney general's office ruled it can't force CPS to turn anything over because "a public body's determination that it has no documents responsive to a FOIA request is a permissible basis for denying such request."

In short, case closed.

Well, with all due respect to the lawyers in Lisa Madigan's office, this might just be the worst case of examination I've seen since Austin Pendleton's stuttering lawyer in My Cousin Vinny.

CPS officials didn't answer the questions Madigan's office asked them. They were asked point blank if the documents ever existed, and they responded that they haven't maintained them. Which is not the same thing as saying the documents never existed at all.

"That is what lawyers would call a nonresponsive answer," says Jeffrey P. Smith, a public interest attorney who's battled his hometown of Evanston on more than one records issue over the years. "The AG didn't ask CPS if they maintained the information—they asked if they ever had it."

The response from CPS officials strongly suggests they destroyed the records.

Smith says that if someone responded that way in one of his cases, "I'd file a motion to compel them to answer."

There you go, Attorney General Madigan—get those lawyers to work!

Krell says he plans to ask Madigan's office to reconsider its decision and pursue the case further.

In any event, here's where we stand now. CPS officials could be telling the truth to the attorney general and have no information to offer Krell, in which case there's no analysis at the heart of the mayor's important policy initiatives. That's something to think about as he shoves his new parking meter deal down our collective throats.

Another possibility is that CPS officials aren't telling the truth to the AG, and there are reports and studies they don't want anyone to see.

Or they've destroyed key documents.

You, the people, get to decide what's worse.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:57 am 
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Some projections indicate that Barack Obama is on pace to deny more FOIA requests than all other Presidents affected combined. It seems, either Emmanuel is taking a page from Obama's playbook; or he put that page in the one the White House currently uses.

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