The Glade 4.0

Pregnancy and childbirth in general are dangerous for women. They were the leading cause of death in women until fairly recently in human history.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Oh, I gathered that.

I believe my suggestion is fair, and ethically and legally consistent, and ultimately better for society and even the unwanted children... better they are not born at all, rather than born to a family that does not want them and is going to experience extreme hardship by having them.

While I understand your position, I don't believe it can be logically justified through secular means. Without invoking religion, there's no logic by which a non-viable fetus should be legally protected, and religion is inadmissable in the legal system of a free country.

I can logically justify protecting a fetus as young as 20-21 weeks and granting it all the rights of a person already born. If the fetus were born prematurely, as young as 20 weeks, it has a small chance of survival. If you walked into the incubation ward of a hospital and shot a 20 week old premie, you'd be guilty of murder. What's the difference if it's in the incubation ward or the womb? Birth can happen at arbitrary times, long before or after the child is premature, so it's a poor place to put the legal protections. Viability, for me, works. It's just logical.

Before that, it's increasingly hard to justify. There's currently no scenario in which a fetus younger than that can survive removal from the womb. Since the child has no inherent right to the woman's womb and is, in effect, trespassing, if she does not want it there, she's perfectly within her rights to have the squatter removed. But i'm not good with her removing the trespasser Texas-style. If it can survive, let it.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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All your ideas about viability are perfectly sound and good, up until you start talking about squatting and trespassers. A fetus/zygote is not a squatter or a trespasser; the right to remove it has nothing to do with the concept of security on your own land or in your residence. It's not analogous. The "parasite" analogy doesn't work either. The situation is unique and isn't governed by the same considerations as either of those.

Some adult, somewhere, is responsible for the presence of that zygote, and that's who is responsible; if that person is a rapist, hopefully their responsibility will be in the form of a lengthy prison term.

Once the baby reaches the point of reasonable viability, however, the mother doesn't have and doesn't need a right to "evict" anything from her body. At that point it is a person, and even if it could survive outside, the fact is that the mother is now its parent and is morally and should legally be responsible for doing her best for it to survive. 21 weeks is plenty of time to decide. We sentence me to years on end of forced poverty and the threat of prison just for losing a job if they father a kid, so after viability, **** the rights of the mother. prior to that point yes, they should govern.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I don't entirely disagree with you.

I still don't understand how 71% of late term abortions happen because the mother didn't realize she was pregnant.

How can you not know? I always started worrying at about 2 days late...

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I think a lot of those are the mother just lying to make an excuse for having a late-term abortion that is **** disgusting, legal or not. She knows damn well what she's doing and is just trying to decrease the stigma a little bit.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

My problem with your proposition is that any baby born and left unattended will die regardless of being premature, on time or late. A newborn cannot take care of itself and requires at the bare minimum someone to clear the mucus out of it's nose and lungs.

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I don't think you've considered the situation thoroughly.

There is extensive legal protection for "potential" in the legal system. When personal damages are incurred, the potential earnings of a person has great consideration in the legal outcome. There are several legal areas where potential comes into play as the reason for legal protection of one sort or another, including stem cell research laws, product liability laws, etc.

A fetus can easily be considered as existing entirely (in a legal perspective) as the potential inherent in it's condition. It's value in the future is incalculable, figure it can be anywhere from useless to potentially priceless.

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In time, this too shall pass.

I'm not suggesting we leave them unattended, either.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

So when applying your suggesting, you would induce premature labor and then what efforts should be expended to determine viability? Induce at a hospital and place the baby in the premie ward with machines doing the breathing, feeding tubes, etc?

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well, if necessary, yes. Although DE's suggestion of simply using the age at which that would even be possible as a cutoff point for abortion works. Although that age will shrink. And frankly, I don't consider a zygote/embryo even remotely close to being a human being yet...

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Fair enough.

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Everyone who is alive today was once as "non-viable" as that "clump of cells" you're talking about "evicting" that nonviability was part of your development and mine. So we need to come up with some way of deciding when it's human and alive.

See that's the cool thing about the heartbeat standard. We apply the universally accepted medical indicator for human life to what is in the womb. Simple, universal and scientific.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

The problem with viability is its based somewhat technology. We are able to deliver babies and see them survive earlier than we were a century ago.

If tomorrow John Hopkins (or anyone) develops a Brave New World style artificial womb, all are the embryos in the world suddenly alive and human because the means exist to save them? What about the ones in Europe or anywhere else in the time the US has the only one.

Also you have the old, disabled, and infirm who are a lot less viable than some 25 week fetuses.

The heartbeat (which we use is every other medical situation) avoids all this difficulty.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Diamondeye suggested an interesting point of viability that is not dependant on technology -- it needs to be able to respirate through its own lungs. Now, it's okay if that is in an incubator, it's still getting oxygen from its own lungs, they're just being assisted. In utero, it's not breathing yet, it's getting oxygen directly from the fallopian tube. Once born, that needs to change, quickly.

If it is too undeveloped for its lungs to support it, it's not viable, even if we can duplicate the fallopian tube.

I thought this had some nice added poetic appropriateness for you Christian types:

"And YHWH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_res ... s_syndrome


My youngest son had hyaline membrane disease after being born. It's apparently undetectable prior to birth.

Personally I'd rather use something absolutely detectable for establishing the criteria.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Fallopian tube? The baby gets oxygen through the umbilical cord. The fallopian tubes lead from the ovaries, they carry the egg to the uterus.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Bah anatomy fail. I was tired, brain cramp. Duh. Yes, you're right. But you know what I meant.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

As task said, that's a little harder to detect in the womb.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

That actually changes nothing. When treating IRDS, they just use pure oxygen (or greater concentrations of it) on ventilation, rather than oxygenating the blood directly. The infant can still breathe, they just do it poorly.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I hoped, but thought maybe they did things different in Canada.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Necropost of the abortion thread:

I am sickened that people are celebrating Texas mobs disrupting the legislature in order to prevent them from changing the timeframe for legal abortions from 6 months to 5 months and to require doctors actually be registered with hospitals. What a foolish bunch of twats, especially in light of the horrifying stories above and the thread over in Heckfire. Once again the liberals turn out to be the ones waging wars on women and minorities while convincing them they are their saviors.

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Why should a doctor need to be registered with a hospital to perform a simple outpatient procedure?

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Holy shitsnacks!

For the same reason a doctor in an outpatient surgical clinic is required to have admitting rights?

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A simple outpatient procedure like Kermit Gosnell was performing? This would apply to every doctor. Abortion shouldn't get a special exemption.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

If the procedure goes downhill, he needs to be able to admit the patient. This is for the safety of the patient, and has nothing to do with denying access or rights to abortion.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine