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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
As for hugging the right, they already have to do that when a motor vehicle comes along.


I don't know about Texas, but that's not true here. In fact, here bikes are entitled to an entire lane if they choose to use it, and then cars are not allowed to pass them except in circumstances where they could pass an automobile in the same situation. (For instance, double solid line? You aren't allowed to pass a bike.)


In most states that is also the case. FRAP and "taking the lane" are legal in many municipalities.

Usually, a cyclist will only take the lane to prevent getting knocked into a ditch or other roadside attraction, or where FRAP will cause other issues.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Georgia's 3-foot rule will invariably run you abreast another traffic violation. I can't really speak to other states, but in Georgia the law effectively prohibits you from passing unless you could pass a car. Georgia's "Failure to maintain lane" violation means you can't pass a bicycle in any non-passing zone, as your vehicle will breach the center line by leaving 3 feet for a bicycle.


Georgia's "failure to maintain lane" law:

Spoiler:
2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
CHAPTER 6 - UNIFORM RULES OF THE ROAD
ARTICLE 3 - DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY, OVERTAKING AND PASSING, FOLLOWING TOO CLOSELY
§ 40-6-48 - Driving on roadways laned for traffic
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O.C.G.A. 40-6-48 (2010)
40-6-48. Driving on roadways laned for traffic


Whenever any roadway has been divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic, the following rules, in addition to all others consistent with this Code section, shall apply:

(1) A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practicable entirely within a single lane and shall not be moved from such lane until the driver has first ascertained that such movement can be made with safety;

(2) Upon a roadway which is divided into three lanes, and provides for two-way movement of traffic, with two lanes in one direction, a vehicle being driven in a continuous or center lane shall have the right of way when overtaking and passing another vehicle traveling in the same direction;

(3) Upon a roadway which is divided into three lanes and provides for two-way movement of traffic, a vehicle shall not be driven in the center lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle traveling in the same direction when such center lane is clear of traffic within a safe distance, or in preparation for making a left turn, or where such center lane is at the time allocated exclusively to traffic moving in the same direction that the vehicle is proceeding and such allocation is designated by official traffic-control devices or road striping;

(4) Official traffic-control devices may be erected directing specified traffic, including but not limited to buses or trucks, to use a designated lane or designating those lanes to be used by traffic moving in a particular direction regardless of the center of the roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such device; and

(5) Official traffic-control devices may be installed prohibiting the changing of lanes on sections of roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such device.


The only section applicable is the following:

Quote:
(1) A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practicable entirely within a single lane and shall not be moved from such lane until the driver has first ascertained that such movement can be made with safety;


This is not incompatible with the 3-foot safe passing rule. The 3-foot bike rule defines when "such movement can be made with safety".

Passing a bike will not get you a ticket for "failure to maintain lane".


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Arathain:

All municipal roadways with fewer than 2 lanes in a single direction do not allow passing within our city limits. Period. Lanes are too narrow to give a cyclist 3 feet and go around them in the direction of traffic. So, yes, as a matter of fact, those tickets get written all the damn time.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 pm 
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http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/61/8/61-8-326.htm

If you don't get hit with a failure to maintain, most states have a no passing moving violation and if they don't you are slapped with disobeying a traffic device/signal or failure to obey.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 8:51 am 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

All municipal roadways with fewer than 2 lanes in a single direction do not allow passing within our city limits. Period. Lanes are too narrow to give a cyclist 3 feet and go around them in the direction of traffic. So, yes, as a matter of fact, those tickets get written all the damn time.


That's not what the law says, but you can believe that if you like. The law says you can pass out of your lane to pass once it is safe. It does not say "never pass outside of your lane while passing". Perhaps there's a different law?

Throwing around "period" and "fact" doesn't change how the law is written. And having tickets written doesn't mean they should be written either. Cops are equally likely to misunderstand laws.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 8:56 am 
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correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding was that to avoid creating a road hazard or obstruction, you're allowed to ignore marked signage including lane markers, provided you don't create another hazard.

Passing a vehicle that cannot maintain cruising velocity, be it a bicycle, car with a flat, tractor, etc is allowed. Similarly all vehicles have an obligation not to create a traffic hazard with unsafe speeds--this can mean too slow too.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:02 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/61/8/61-8-326.htm

If you don't get hit with a failure to maintain, most states have a no passing moving violation and if they don't you are slapped with disobeying a traffic device/signal or failure to obey.


Sure, there needs to be an opportunity for traffic engineers to identify areas where there are hazards which the driver may not be aware. One way to do this is to tell the driver not to pass for a distance due to some blind entrance, blind curve, etc. In these areas, per your linked law, it's not legal to pass outside of your lane. I'm not sure if you can still pass a bicyclist within your lane (if able to meet safe distance) or if it's just no passing at all. Either way, these areas are typically limited. Sometimes you need to suck it up and wait.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:03 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding was that to avoid creating a road hazard or obstruction, you're allowed to ignore marked signage including lane markers, provided you don't create another hazard.

Passing a vehicle that cannot maintain cruising velocity, be it a bicycle, car with a flat, tractor, etc is allowed. Similarly all vehicles have an obligation not to create a traffic hazard with unsafe speeds--this can mean too slow too.


Well, now we're getting into specific laws, but bottom line is EVERYTHING is legal unless outlawed. So if there's no law against it, have at it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:36 am 
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Arathain:

Considering my employer's university PD has an officer whose sole job is to ticket people for illegally passing cyclists, I'm pretty confident with knowing how they enforce this law in the state where I reside.
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(5) Official traffic-control devices may be installed prohibiting the changing of lanes on sections of roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such device.
One such traffic control device is the god-damned double yellow line in the middle of pretty much every municipal roadway in Georgia. Within any city limits, two lane, bi-directional traffic is ALWAYS divided by a double yellow line in Georgia. You don't get passing markings unless you have more than 2 lanes and multiple lanes solely devoted to traffic in one direction.

Crossing a double yellow center line to pass a bicycle is an illegal pass, since you cannot stay in lane and abide the 3 foot rule. This is a point blank fact. But, you know, keep telling people they don't know how they enforce the laws where they live.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:55 am 
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Khross wrote:
Crossing a double yellow center line to pass a bicycle is an illegal pass, since you cannot stay in lane and abide the 3 foot rule. This is a point blank fact. But, you know, keep telling people they don't know how they enforce the laws where they live.


Crossing a double yellow line is pretty much illegal, as far as I know, in every state I've ever heard of. The same is true of the equivalent markings in Canada and the UK.

Just because there happens to be a bicycle in your lane (or a trash truck, or the postman, or whatever) doesn't really matter. It's still illegal to pass there. Now, like many people, you could take your chances and pass anyway, but you're risking a ticket.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

Considering my employer's university PD has an officer whose sole job is to ticket people for illegally passing cyclists, I'm pretty confident with knowing how they enforce this law in the state where I reside.


Your employer's university PD having an officer who does x, y, or z does not change how the law is written. Nor does enforcement practice precedent change how the law is written.

Quote:
(5) Official traffic-control devices may be installed prohibiting the changing of lanes on sections of roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such device.
One such traffic control device is the god-damned [/quote]

There's really no need to get your panties in a bunch.

Quote:
double yellow line in the middle of pretty much every municipal roadway in Georgia.


So I looked into the Georgia code for no passing zones, and indeed a double-yellow line is defined as a no passing zone. It provides various exceptions, including for obstructions. Unfortunately, "obstructions" is not defined.

Quote:
Within any city limits, two lane, bi-directional traffic is ALWAYS divided by a double yellow line in Georgia.


Unless you've been to "any" city, and reviewed all the bi-direction traffic corridors, you don't know it's "ALWAYS" divided by a double yellow line.

Quote:
You don't get passing markings unless you have more than 2 lanes and multiple lanes solely devoted to traffic in one direction.


IF that's the case (again, not buying your "always" nonsense), this is reasonable for urbanized traffic where there are lots of entrances and driveways. This is certainly not the case in non-urban areas in Georgia, where there are an abundance of passing areas. In bi-directional urban areas, speed limits are dramatically reduced, so the impact of a bicyclist is minimal.

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Crossing a double yellow center line to pass a bicycle is an illegal pass, since you cannot stay in lane and abide the 3 foot rule. This is a point blank fact. But, you know, keep telling people they don't know how they enforce the laws where they live.


Again, saying something is fact does not make it so. You referenced a portion of code that I then had to research. Your no-passing zone definitions are elsewhere.

Regardless, I take issue with your "factual" statement that "you cannot stay in lane and abide the 3 foot rule". This is hardly established fact. The Georgia DOT standard lane width is 12 feet, and the average vehicle width is 6 feet. In some highly urbanized areas, with slow speed limits, the lane width can be reduced to 11 feet. In addition, 2-foot shoulders are required (though let's be honest here, so are bike lanes and this hasn't been fully implemented yet, so my assumption is there is not a shoulder everywhere). Regardless, a 6-foot vehicle can leave a 3-foot space safely under most standard lane widths. Of course, that means the rider has to be on the right, which the law requires also.

Now, bear in mind this is DOT regs. I certainly have no interest in research local laws for every municipality in the state.


Last edited by Arathain Kelvar on Thu May 30, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:24 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Khross wrote:
Crossing a double yellow center line to pass a bicycle is an illegal pass, since you cannot stay in lane and abide the 3 foot rule. This is a point blank fact. But, you know, keep telling people they don't know how they enforce the laws where they live.


Crossing a double yellow line is pretty much illegal, as far as I know, in every state I've ever heard of. The same is true of the equivalent markings in Canada and the UK.

Just because there happens to be a bicycle in your lane (or a trash truck, or the postman, or whatever) doesn't really matter. It's still illegal to pass there. Now, like many people, you could take your chances and pass anyway, but you're risking a ticket.


This is generally the case, however there are typically exceptions (emergency vehicles, obstructions, etc.) so it depends on how it's all written out.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:33 pm 
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The laws for passing vehicles (motorized or otherwise) in Ohio do not refer to the color or type of lane lines at all, but rather to the road conditions under which passing to the left is permitted. A good example is that you may not pass to the left when approaching a hill crest within a certain distance.

The double yellow lines are supposed to be there in order to provide a guide as to when it is and is not permissible based on those conditions to pass on the left. If you drive on a country road, for example, you'll see it shifts between dashed lines, double lines, and a single solid and single dashed line depending on road contours.

When you're not permitted to pass at all, there's supposed to be a yellow flag-shaped sign saying "no passing zone".

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The laws for passing vehicles (motorized or otherwise) in Ohio do not refer to the color or type of lane lines at all, but rather to the road conditions under which passing to the left is permitted. A good example is that you may not pass to the left when approaching a hill crest within a certain distance.

The double yellow lines are supposed to be there in order to provide a guide as to when it is and is not permissible based on those conditions to pass on the left. If you drive on a country road, for example, you'll see it shifts between dashed lines, double lines, and a single solid and single dashed line depending on road contours.

When you're not permitted to pass at all, there's supposed to be a yellow flag-shaped sign saying "no passing zone".

No. The Pavement Markers are the indicator, no special flag sign is required.

Quote:
PAVEMENT MARKINGS
A-Yellow lines indicate the separation of traffic flow in opposing directions;
thus, all broken lines on two-way, two-lane highways are yellow. Broken
yellow lines permit passing, while solid yellow lines still indicate that passing is
prohibited.


http://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/hsy7607.pdf

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:58 pm 
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If you read the actual revised code for passing, you will see that it does not refer to solid yellow lines. Yellow lines are placed based on the conditions that prohibit passing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:54 pm 
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So you are saying, where there are double yellow lines you cannot pass?

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So you are saying, where there are double yellow lines you cannot pass?
He's telling you that your lay knowledge of law and native knowledge of the English language are insufficient to read a plain English statute, Hopwin.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:17 pm 
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You know what I **** hate? Stupid selfish assholes in their wheelchairs who take **** to get through a door when I am trying to get in. I could use the non automatic door, but that would be inconveniencing me. ME! **** everyone that isn't me! I don't have time for that ****. I'm too god damned **** important.

And woe to those disabled douchenozzles if they take their sweet time to get through the one and only door to the establishment. Holy christ on a stick does that cheese me the hell off! I have to wait a minuscule amount of time out of my day to them? **** them! **** their lame "needs." I can walk just fine. I shouldn't have to put up with their ****.

Then they have the audacity to take up space down one of the same aisles I am shopping in?! I have to either adjust my walking pattern, or (and holy shitgod don't even get me started) that I have to wait a little longer to exit the aisle I am in because I can't get around them? **** **** that!

They don't even need that Mocha Latte from Starbucks. Not the same way I need it! They shouldn't even be here. They should all just have their little own place away from me and my perfectly selfish self so I don't have to look at them, see them, smell them, or hear them. Hell, they should just all stay at home.

**** everyone that isn't me. Because I am the only person that matters. Everyone else is a lesser being whose own personal lives, thoughts, and rights don't mean dick because they aren't me.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Holy ****, I think Numbuk was on the receiving end of buttsex from Dane Cook ...

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:24 pm 
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"Holy shitgod" is my new favorite phrase.

Also, autocorrect wants to make it "slut golf." EVEN BETTER.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:34 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Khross wrote:
Crossing a double yellow line is pretty much illegal, as far as I know, in every state I've ever heard of. The same is true of the equivalent markings in Canada and the UK.
In Vermont double yellows are considered advisory and you can cross them as long as the road doesn't have some kind of no passing or no changing lanes signage. That's the only state I know of like that, though.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:39 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
"Holy shitgod" is my new favorite phrase.

Also, autocorrect wants to make it "slut golf." EVEN BETTER.
In the context of Dane Cook's communicable douchebaggery and dude-broism, that's entirely too appropriate.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:39 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
"Holy shitgod" is my new favorite phrase.

Also, autocorrect wants to make it "slut golf." EVEN BETTER.


Now I want to go to the driving range and hit some balls.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:48 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
"Holy shitgod" is my new favorite phrase.

Also, autocorrect wants to make it "slut golf." EVEN BETTER.


Slut golf, nice.

It's different from regular golf in that you start out with the irons, and end up in the woods.

You can play 18 holes and then a round of golf.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:01 pm 
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And some people prefer to play in the rough.

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