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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Do you have an example Screeling?

To be honest, I'm not overly clear on all the regulations surrounding non-profits, so I'm not sure if it's legal or not.

In general, however, I really dislike any supposedly non-political organization trying to influence policy. I'm not crazy about political organizations influencing policy either, but realize that it's a necessary evil in the current system.


There really is no such thing as a non-political organization once you get into any social arena. Any social issue is inherently political as a matter of public policy.

Saying that organizations involved in social issues shouldn't be involved in politics is essentially saying they shouldn't be involved in social issues, or at least that if they are they should avoid any involvement in political decisions that ultimately effect them.

Keeping them out of elections specifically is another matter and rather more workable, but ultimately involvement in the politics of social issues is a Free Speech right, and in the case of religious people, a Free Exerise right. Telling people who are religious that thye must choose between the moral aspects of their faith and the charitable ones is essentially a denial of Free Exercise, as is creating a situation that results in a de facto choice of the same sort.

Granted, that doesn't excuse organizations that get so wrapped up in public funds that they impose a choice on themselves, but it still is not an excuse for calling their self-induced closure a form of blackmail (yes I know someone else said that).


I agree with what you're saying, and it's definately not something that is cut and dried.

For me when the lined is crossed with religion is when a pastor or official body will advocate voting for one candidate over another or something similarly overt. And much of that is based on the restrictions because of their non-profit status.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I agree with what you're saying, and it's definately not something that is cut and dried.

For me when the lined is crossed with religion is when a pastor or official body will advocate voting for one candidate over another or something similarly overt. And much of that is based on the restrictions because of their non-profit status.


That's what I meant by "getting involved in elections". I don't consider, however, advocating that people should vote for candidates who espouse some general principle as "getting involved in elections." There may not even be an election going on and there may or may not be a candidate to whom the issue applies when one eventually comes around.

To me, the line is crossed when a bona fide candidate in a bona fide election is advocated or attacked.

Ballot issues that don't involve candidates are trickier because they're, well, issues, and prohibiting taking a position on them based on tax-exempt status is making an end run around the First Amendment using tax law. On the other hand, they are elections and charitable/non-profit organizations shouldn't be using ballot issues as a way to get involved in elections or act as de facto political groups either. Still, I'd err on the side of Free Speech in constructing a compromise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurray!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Funny how that whole tax exempt thing for churches came about, anyway. Prior to 1954, pastors were free to speak as they wished, protected by the First Amendment. In 1954, Senator (later President) LBJ inserted language in the IRS code to silence his political enemies, or punish them if they did speak out. Funny, that.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:26 pm 
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I think we're pretty close on this one.

I was assuming an active campaign or political party in my comments. I have no problems with advocating a certain mindset or set of values, etc.

Where things get tricky is when the churchs follow the letter of the law, without honoring the intent as well. There were a few cases in recent elections of churches specifically advocating certain parties or candidates, but did it in a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" kind of way that while obvious to the audience, broke IMHO the intent of the law and was wrong.

I agree about erring on the side of Free Speech.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurray!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
Funny how that whole tax exempt thing for churches came about, anyway. Prior to 1954, pastors were free to speak as they wished, protected by the First Amendment. In 1954, Senator (later President) LBJ inserted language in the IRS code to silence his political enemies, or punish them if they did speak out. Funny, that.


Actually, it was in 1934 that the restrictions on churches involvement in politics. What Johnson introduced in 1954 just added restrictions on campaigns.

Quote:
However, in 1934, Congress for the first time passed legislation adding the restriction that "no substantial part of the activities" of a tax-exempt corporation or foundation (including churches) may consist of "carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation."39 The original version of the bill banned taxexempt organizations from any "participation in partisan politics."40 Later, this ambiguous phrase was removed in conference41 because, according to Representative Samuel B. Smith, "[w]e were afraid this provision was too broad."42 Finally, in 1954, Senator Lyndon B. Johnson introduced the highly controversial campaigning restriction,43 which Congress amended in 1986 to include a restriction against opposing political candidates to supplement the existing ban on endorsing candidates.44


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... ntent;col1


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 Post subject: Re: Hurray!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
Funny how that whole tax exempt thing for churches came about, anyway. Prior to 1954, pastors were free to speak as they wished, protected by the First Amendment. In 1954, Senator (later President) LBJ inserted language in the IRS code to silence his political enemies, or punish them if they did speak out. Funny, that.


Actually, it was in 1934 that the restrictions on churches involvement in politics. What Johnson introduced in 1954 just added restrictions on campaigns.

Quote:
However, in 1934, Congress for the first time passed legislation adding the restriction that "no substantial part of the activities" of a tax-exempt corporation or foundation (including churches) may consist of "carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation."39 The original version of the bill banned taxexempt organizations from any "participation in partisan politics."40 Later, this ambiguous phrase was removed in conference41 because, according to Representative Samuel B. Smith, "[w]e were afraid this provision was too broad."42 Finally, in 1954, Senator Lyndon B. Johnson introduced the highly controversial campaigning restriction,43 which Congress amended in 1986 to include a restriction against opposing political candidates to supplement the existing ban on endorsing candidates.44


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... ntent;col1


"Attempting to influence legislation" is not the same thing as banning pastors from endorsing political candidates, which is what LBJ pushed through.

Be that as it may, I don't think the rules violate the letter of the First Amendment. Instead, I believe it violates the spirit of the First, on both the Freedom of Religion clause and Freedom of Speech clause. Many of those who came here as colonists were fleeing religious persecution, and the First was supposed to be a guarantor that gov't would not restrict religious freedom. It seems to me that the IRS tax code is being used to do that very thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:10 pm 
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There's no such thing as a "Freedom of Religion" clause.

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